Monday, May 23, 2011
脆弱的知識
Carl Sagan 在他作品中憶述古文明世界最大的學術中心，亞歷山大港的圖書館，裡面最後一位學者，是科學家、天文學家、數學家、物理學家，且是亞歷山大新柏拉圖學派的學者，她，對，是個女性，名叫 Hypatia希帕提亞。
她據說是絕色美人，但卻只愛學術，一生不嫁。
在古代男性霸權世界，當所有女性都被當作是男性的附屬品，要絕對服從男性，希帕提亞在亞歷山大城自由活動，自己駕駛馬車，門下都是來自亞歷山大城名門的子弟。
YouTube片段用電影片段"Agora" （港譯「穹蒼下的女神」）剪輯希帕提亞的故事。
片段你們會發現裡面有看來像塔利班的黑衣人。這些黑衣人隨身攜帶刀子和石頭，隨時襲擊異教徒。
這些電影裡面的黑衣人都是基督徒。
基督徒的領袖是 Cyril of Alexandra。希帕提亞她不但是異教徒，學識淵博，且教授學生，當然是男學生，且是個女人。在當時的氛圍，她不肯歸依基督教或放棄她的學術研究，因此成為基督徒的眼中釘，這些電影裡面的黑衣基督徒的暴行都是史實。
基督徒在羅馬帝國宣布基督教為國教後，開始不斷擴張勢力，他們攻擊異教徒，且燒毀亞歷山大港圖書館的珍藏。
古世界圖書得來不易，歷山大港圖書館的每一本書都是珍貴典藏，據說藏書達到百萬冊，都被基督徒燒毀。
公元415年3月的清晨，希帕提亞像平時一樣，坐上馬車準備去講學，忽然，從街道的各個角落裡，湧出那些黑以基督徒，他們把希帕提亞從馬車扯了下來，把她毆打，揪她著頭髮，把她拖進教堂，這些有刀子和石頭的基督徒，凶暴的告訴希帕提亞：「如果還妳還想活下去，你要悔改，親吻十字架，加入修道院，成為基督徒。」
這等於要希帕提亞放棄她的學者身分，和古代世界的女性一樣成為男性的財產和附屬品，不得研究學術或者教導學生。
希帕提亞拒絕皈依基督教。誦經士彼特 (Peter the Reader)和信徒大怒，他們剝掉希帕提亞的衣服，要她赤裸羞辱她，然後用鋒利的牡蠣殼，一片片地刮下她身上的肉，然後把她在鮮血中顫抖的身體，砍成一段一段扔進了熊熊燃燒的火中。
Tuesday, May 03, 2011
重遇帶我信耶穌的人的感受
重遇帶我信耶穌的人﹐27年後的今天﹐ 是傳道人太太﹐ 今天回來奔喪﹐ 我也不便難為佢﹐ 只是發現典型耶徒心態和偏見在佢身上也是很濃厚的。
大家在九龍一酒店coffee shop坐下
講開我2009年和人組織遊行包圍恩福堂﹐ 就是在那酒店2樓舉行30週年晚會﹐ 真是冤家路窄。
朋友說﹐ 蘇穎智牧師有他表達“個人”意見的自由﹐ 我說他根本不是代表個人﹐ 是代表一家萬人教會﹐ 而且有表達“個人”意見的自由不代表他有不被反對﹑反擊的特權 -- 原來耶徒一向都是以為言論自由是包括不被反對反擊的特權。。。
我說 蘇穎智牧師的言論是十分有殺傷性和不正確﹐ 佢仍然說任何人有表達“個人”意見的自由 (包括胡說八道﹑出口傷人﹖)﹐ 我說他身份不同﹐ 沒有所謂個人自由﹐ 因為他是間萬人教會牧師﹐ 佢話 -- 蘇穎智同我都只是 small potato -- 我忍不住說﹐ 我相信很多牧師都願意做一間萬人教會牧師的 small potato﹐ 她說我叫蘇穎智做“蘇弱智”是人身攻擊﹐ 我說﹐ 我只是講事實﹐ 他確實是“弱智”﹐ 她聽了十分無奈﹐ 只是說﹐ 我表達反對別那麼 aggressive -- 我說﹐ 當日立法會聽證現場﹐ 他們教會200-300人人多多去兇人家得幾十人的同志團體又如何﹖ 我朋友派呼籲信徒對同志友善單張結果比恩福堂某人強搶單張掉晒那又如何﹐ 佢不正面回應誰 "aggressive"
後來說到基督教﹐ 她說無神論中國導致沒有了道德標準﹐ 我即時更正﹐ 中國思想是早熟的﹐ 早在春秋中國人已經是無神哲學﹐ 孔子的那套儒家就等於無神﹐ 她不接口
然後說我思想灰﹐ 負面﹐ 我說不是﹐ 我只是不喜歡一看見好的就歌頌太平﹐ 忽視社會不公義現象 -- 可能佢以為香港這些問題都不是今天才有﹐ 大家都“接納”了﹐我“嘈”咩呢﹖
我自己看在幾十年朋友份上都不激烈反擊﹐ 主要原因也是她也沒有 push﹐ 不過她似乎認定我是接觸太多灰的東西而不信耶穌 -- 那麼是不是等於我多看美好的一面﹐ 就等於“應該”信耶穌﹖
我相信答案很清楚的。她沒有打算和我辯論信仰﹐ 只是問問其它同學朋友近況﹐ 然後大家就各自回家。
我自己想﹐ 其實我在佢心目中已經被定性的了﹐ 多說無益。
然後出上文後,有人忙不迭回應:
妳只是信（ 入） 了基督教！但並沒有信（ 接受） 耶穌！因此並沒有新的生命！
我說:
很簡單﹐ 我決志後﹐ 這位朋友親自跟進我信仰﹐ 同教會執事﹑主日學老師﹑導師等﹐ 都肯定我有信（ 接受） 耶穌﹐ 才會給我浸﹐如果你認為他們判斷有問題﹐ 我可以在這裡一個一個開晒名﹐ 你去我舊教會同他們講﹕ 你們有眼無珠﹐ 錯以為「一個只是信（ 入） 了基督教﹐ 但並沒有信（ 接受） 耶穌﹐ 沒有新的生命」的人是得救的。
連這位認識我超過30年的都不說你以上那番話﹐ 你只憑對我片面認識﹑連我在教會生活如何的也毫無頭緒的老而不﹐ 說的只是胡說八道。
不過﹐ 在我這個無神論者看﹐ 你也根本沒有絲所謂新的生命﹐ 因為你們信的耶穌是子虛烏有。
這個信徒果然夠無恥, 說: 那班人的確有眼無珠，警覺性唔高，冇防備一隻披着羊皮的狼 !!!
我離開教會﹐ 他們沒有人說我是披着羊皮的狼﹐ 這就顯示出那信徒人格的高低。人家不會論斷﹐ 他會論斷﹐ 而且是惡毒的論斷，而且﹐ 按照這信徒的邏輯﹐ 凡有信徒離開的教會﹐ 它的執事傳道導師都是有眼無珠，警覺性唔高對不對﹖ 那麼恐怕香港每家教會都是被這些有眼無珠，警覺性唔高的領導帶領﹐ 可能他正是一隻披着羊皮的狼。
而且那家教會的執事、傳道、導師能夠保證到可以辨別那些是「一隻披着羊皮的狼」?
說不定那信徒的親人，例如他返教會的孫都會可能是披羊皮的狼﹐ 或者他每次回教會一起聚會﹑坐旁邊都是披羊皮的狼 -- 但他一直有眼無珠當是主內弟兄姊妹....?
其實這信徒有一個錯誤信仰概念﹐ 就退一步說﹐ 當有耶穌﹐ 當真的有人會信耶穌有新生命﹐ 難道就保證到那個人絕對不會離開基督教﹑離開他們信的耶穌﹖
這信徒的觀念並非傳統基督教教義所講的﹐ 而是近100年北美福音派教會為了籠絡更多人信耶穌﹐ 於是D人一信就話他們得救﹐ 有新生命﹐ 必定得救﹐ 必定上天堂﹐ 一次得救永遠得救等﹐ 但宗教改革時代﹐ 不論馬丁路德或者加爾文講的概念都不是如此的﹐ 前者不會這樣說﹐ 後者更加說神揀選的得救﹐ 但沒有人知道自己是屬於神揀選行列﹐ 後來北美教會希望更多人加入教會﹐ 就會在有人舉手決志信耶穌就會宣佈他得救﹐ 這種做法是十分新近﹐ 而且古老基督教信仰從來﹑沒有說“信耶穌有新生命”絕對不會離開基督教/離開耶穌的。
有人說，「君子絕交，不出惡言 」，說我離開基督教後高調批評，是錯的行為。
查「君子絕交，不出惡言 」出自樂毅《報遺燕惠王書》 「...臣聞古之君子，交絕不出惡聲...」指古代的君子，與人絕交時也不會咒罵別人。
但我不是和人絕交，而是斷絕和一個我認為是錯誤、虛偽、不合理信仰的關係，基督教算是「君子」﹖ 我認為一個虛偽反智反科學的宗教不配叫「君子」，我批評基督教也非針對人。我不是用惡毒言語攻擊曾經所「信」的﹐ 而是我說出基督教如何矇騙世人﹐ 令人錯 「信」﹐ 警告其它人不要重蹈覆轍﹐ 就好似離開黑社會的人警告其它人不要加入黑社會一樣﹐ 那不需要受到所謂「君子絕交，不出惡言」的規範﹐ 因為正如黑社會不是「君子」﹐ 基督教也不是「君子」。
基督教也鼓勵從佛教道教拜祖先的用言語攻擊曾經所「信」的 (講見證)﹐ 請問為何「君子絕交，不出惡言」這原則他們不需要遵從﹖
外國很多很多人離開基督教也說出基督教的問題﹐ 你可以買到不少離教信徒﹑牧師﹑宣教士的離開基督教經歷，只是香港和華人地區這個做法還未普遍。
朋友臨走又"提醒"我, assertive 可以, 別aggressive
大概她希望我就算反對基督教都要"低調、婉轉、顧全人家面子、別當面講、圓滑", 我相信也是受到教會文化所影響
我只是高調、直接、不留情面、兜口兜面講、硬繃繃直言, 朋友就覺得是"aggressive",相信也是因為看不慣公共空間這種言論表達的confrontation
蘇穎智可不是發表個人意見, 不但在立法會有紀錄, 內容更加大晒馬: "本人是中國播道會恩福堂的主任牧師，教會的會眾超過一萬人"..."本人代表著中國播道會恩福堂逾10000人的心聲".....
當日發言他原本說那些"大學生變成性奴、養鴨一族"等言論,其實也遞交給立法會,但他看來害怕白紙黑字給人炳, 給立法會意見書最後找到的是"修訂本:", 刪除他講過"大學生變成性奴、養鴨一族"等言論 -- 他是「高調、直接、不留情面、兜口兜面講、硬繃繃直言」, 十分 aggressive，然後比人片就淆底， 說過不敢承認, 他的aggression 大概又要人們好"低調、婉轉、顧全人家面子、別當面講、圓滑"回應乎?
華人教會有一個有趣現象,只要是一個大牧 (即一個著名牧師, 例如蘇弱智之流), 就算他說的是多沒有道理、荒謬、大錯特錯、混帳、胡說八道，華人教會圈子絕對沒有任何人會出言指正, 機構也是 (例如影音使團, 明光社), 所以好似張國棟他出書批評 明光社, 或者孫寶玲牧師在私人 blog 批評神學院人事, 或者好似快必那樣子去"全球祈禱日"抗議、上恩福堂踩人場, 都是華人教會圈子非常忌諱的 -- 我未必 aggressive, 但肯定犯人禁忌 -- 這就是朋友所講的 aggression吧
我戲謔說蘇穎智花名蘇弱智, 她就說:那是人身攻擊 -- 我費事解釋甚麼是"人身攻擊", 其實正確說, 戲謔說蘇穎智花名蘇弱智,只是"對人不對事"和說貶損侮辱人的衊詞, 並非構成"人身攻擊", 但她對我言論的反應, 對比她對蘇穎智的寬容 (說他有"表達個人意見的自由", 但沒有提及他也對同志"人身攻擊"), 也多少顯示基督徒始終幫返自己人.
記得一宗小插曲, 我去"性文化學會"回應當時"反宗教霸權遊行"的座談,當日就有信徒很不"識做", 高調、直接、不留情面、兜口兜面講、硬繃繃直言,問座談會發言嘉賓 (關啟文, 朱耀明, 還有主持阿蔡志森) 對蘇穎智言論的回應, 當場幾個人面色大變 -- 以為"自己"地方安全, 都比人"偷襲"到, 結果顧左右而言他, 居然不敢評論, 關啟文, 朱耀明說自己沒有"親耳在場"聽到, 不評論 (報紙鋪天蓋地報導都不評論?), 蔡志森是"親耳在場"聽到, 但就不評論 -- 而且最妙就是他們沒有一個"撐"蘇穎智 --- 中間休息後, 他們為防止失控, 結果就不再隨手給台下觀眾自由發問, 而是"挑選"認識的 (有朋友看到他們往往每次都挑中"撐"他們的人, 明顯看出有些人是"媒") -- 在他們的場地, 就好似這裡的基督教版, 異見必定被消音。
張國棟現在都比「時代論壇」封殺，文章多次被拒絕刊登，原因不難明白，他多次「唔識做」，「時代論壇」米飯班主是甚麼人？他們（教會）不同意張國棟，大可以投稿「時代論壇」和他辯論，但採取封殺手段扼殺言論討論空間，正就是今天建制派手法，結果人家想不 aggressive表達都不行。
我相信, 我就算不離開基督教, 我會是以前朋友形容, 是"基督教界長毛", 必定做一些基督教認為是大逆不道的批評衝擊行為。
大家在九龍一酒店coffee shop坐下
講開我2009年和人組織遊行包圍恩福堂﹐ 就是在那酒店2樓舉行30週年晚會﹐ 真是冤家路窄。
朋友說﹐ 蘇穎智牧師有他表達“個人”意見的自由﹐ 我說他根本不是代表個人﹐ 是代表一家萬人教會﹐ 而且有表達“個人”意見的自由不代表他有不被反對﹑反擊的特權 -- 原來耶徒一向都是以為言論自由是包括不被反對反擊的特權。。。
我說 蘇穎智牧師的言論是十分有殺傷性和不正確﹐ 佢仍然說任何人有表達“個人”意見的自由 (包括胡說八道﹑出口傷人﹖)﹐ 我說他身份不同﹐ 沒有所謂個人自由﹐ 因為他是間萬人教會牧師﹐ 佢話 -- 蘇穎智同我都只是 small potato -- 我忍不住說﹐ 我相信很多牧師都願意做一間萬人教會牧師的 small potato﹐ 她說我叫蘇穎智做“蘇弱智”是人身攻擊﹐ 我說﹐ 我只是講事實﹐ 他確實是“弱智”﹐ 她聽了十分無奈﹐ 只是說﹐ 我表達反對別那麼 aggressive -- 我說﹐ 當日立法會聽證現場﹐ 他們教會200-300人人多多去兇人家得幾十人的同志團體又如何﹖ 我朋友派呼籲信徒對同志友善單張結果比恩福堂某人強搶單張掉晒那又如何﹐ 佢不正面回應誰 "aggressive"
後來說到基督教﹐ 她說無神論中國導致沒有了道德標準﹐ 我即時更正﹐ 中國思想是早熟的﹐ 早在春秋中國人已經是無神哲學﹐ 孔子的那套儒家就等於無神﹐ 她不接口
然後說我思想灰﹐ 負面﹐ 我說不是﹐ 我只是不喜歡一看見好的就歌頌太平﹐ 忽視社會不公義現象 -- 可能佢以為香港這些問題都不是今天才有﹐ 大家都“接納”了﹐我“嘈”咩呢﹖
我自己看在幾十年朋友份上都不激烈反擊﹐ 主要原因也是她也沒有 push﹐ 不過她似乎認定我是接觸太多灰的東西而不信耶穌 -- 那麼是不是等於我多看美好的一面﹐ 就等於“應該”信耶穌﹖
我相信答案很清楚的。她沒有打算和我辯論信仰﹐ 只是問問其它同學朋友近況﹐ 然後大家就各自回家。
我自己想﹐ 其實我在佢心目中已經被定性的了﹐ 多說無益。
然後出上文後,有人忙不迭回應:
妳只是信（ 入） 了基督教！但並沒有信（ 接受） 耶穌！因此並沒有新的生命！
我說:
很簡單﹐ 我決志後﹐ 這位朋友親自跟進我信仰﹐ 同教會執事﹑主日學老師﹑導師等﹐ 都肯定我有信（ 接受） 耶穌﹐ 才會給我浸﹐如果你認為他們判斷有問題﹐ 我可以在這裡一個一個開晒名﹐ 你去我舊教會同他們講﹕ 你們有眼無珠﹐ 錯以為「一個只是信（ 入） 了基督教﹐ 但並沒有信（ 接受） 耶穌﹐ 沒有新的生命」的人是得救的。
連這位認識我超過30年的都不說你以上那番話﹐ 你只憑對我片面認識﹑連我在教會生活如何的也毫無頭緒的老而不﹐ 說的只是胡說八道。
不過﹐ 在我這個無神論者看﹐ 你也根本沒有絲所謂新的生命﹐ 因為你們信的耶穌是子虛烏有。
這個信徒果然夠無恥, 說: 那班人的確有眼無珠，警覺性唔高，冇防備一隻披着羊皮的狼 !!!
我離開教會﹐ 他們沒有人說我是披着羊皮的狼﹐ 這就顯示出那信徒人格的高低。人家不會論斷﹐ 他會論斷﹐ 而且是惡毒的論斷，而且﹐ 按照這信徒的邏輯﹐ 凡有信徒離開的教會﹐ 它的執事傳道導師都是有眼無珠，警覺性唔高對不對﹖ 那麼恐怕香港每家教會都是被這些有眼無珠，警覺性唔高的領導帶領﹐ 可能他正是一隻披着羊皮的狼。
而且那家教會的執事、傳道、導師能夠保證到可以辨別那些是「一隻披着羊皮的狼」?
說不定那信徒的親人，例如他返教會的孫都會可能是披羊皮的狼﹐ 或者他每次回教會一起聚會﹑坐旁邊都是披羊皮的狼 -- 但他一直有眼無珠當是主內弟兄姊妹....?
其實這信徒有一個錯誤信仰概念﹐ 就退一步說﹐ 當有耶穌﹐ 當真的有人會信耶穌有新生命﹐ 難道就保證到那個人絕對不會離開基督教﹑離開他們信的耶穌﹖
這信徒的觀念並非傳統基督教教義所講的﹐ 而是近100年北美福音派教會為了籠絡更多人信耶穌﹐ 於是D人一信就話他們得救﹐ 有新生命﹐ 必定得救﹐ 必定上天堂﹐ 一次得救永遠得救等﹐ 但宗教改革時代﹐ 不論馬丁路德或者加爾文講的概念都不是如此的﹐ 前者不會這樣說﹐ 後者更加說神揀選的得救﹐ 但沒有人知道自己是屬於神揀選行列﹐ 後來北美教會希望更多人加入教會﹐ 就會在有人舉手決志信耶穌就會宣佈他得救﹐ 這種做法是十分新近﹐ 而且古老基督教信仰從來﹑沒有說“信耶穌有新生命”絕對不會離開基督教/離開耶穌的。
有人說，「君子絕交，不出惡言 」，說我離開基督教後高調批評，是錯的行為。
查「君子絕交，不出惡言 」出自樂毅《報遺燕惠王書》 「...臣聞古之君子，交絕不出惡聲...」指古代的君子，與人絕交時也不會咒罵別人。
但我不是和人絕交，而是斷絕和一個我認為是錯誤、虛偽、不合理信仰的關係，基督教算是「君子」﹖ 我認為一個虛偽反智反科學的宗教不配叫「君子」，我批評基督教也非針對人。我不是用惡毒言語攻擊曾經所「信」的﹐ 而是我說出基督教如何矇騙世人﹐ 令人錯 「信」﹐ 警告其它人不要重蹈覆轍﹐ 就好似離開黑社會的人警告其它人不要加入黑社會一樣﹐ 那不需要受到所謂「君子絕交，不出惡言」的規範﹐ 因為正如黑社會不是「君子」﹐ 基督教也不是「君子」。
基督教也鼓勵從佛教道教拜祖先的用言語攻擊曾經所「信」的 (講見證)﹐ 請問為何「君子絕交，不出惡言」這原則他們不需要遵從﹖
外國很多很多人離開基督教也說出基督教的問題﹐ 你可以買到不少離教信徒﹑牧師﹑宣教士的離開基督教經歷，只是香港和華人地區這個做法還未普遍。
朋友臨走又"提醒"我, assertive 可以, 別aggressive
大概她希望我就算反對基督教都要"低調、婉轉、顧全人家面子、別當面講、圓滑", 我相信也是受到教會文化所影響
我只是高調、直接、不留情面、兜口兜面講、硬繃繃直言, 朋友就覺得是"aggressive",相信也是因為看不慣公共空間這種言論表達的confrontation
蘇穎智可不是發表個人意見, 不但在立法會有紀錄, 內容更加大晒馬: "本人是中國播道會恩福堂的主任牧師，教會的會眾超過一萬人"..."本人代表著中國播道會恩福堂逾10000人的心聲".....
當日發言他原本說那些"大學生變成性奴、養鴨一族"等言論,其實也遞交給立法會,但他看來害怕白紙黑字給人炳, 給立法會意見書最後找到的是"修訂本:", 刪除他講過"大學生變成性奴、養鴨一族"等言論 -- 他是「高調、直接、不留情面、兜口兜面講、硬繃繃直言」, 十分 aggressive，然後比人片就淆底， 說過不敢承認, 他的aggression 大概又要人們好"低調、婉轉、顧全人家面子、別當面講、圓滑"回應乎?
華人教會有一個有趣現象,只要是一個大牧 (即一個著名牧師, 例如蘇弱智之流), 就算他說的是多沒有道理、荒謬、大錯特錯、混帳、胡說八道，華人教會圈子絕對沒有任何人會出言指正, 機構也是 (例如影音使團, 明光社), 所以好似張國棟他出書批評 明光社, 或者孫寶玲牧師在私人 blog 批評神學院人事, 或者好似快必那樣子去"全球祈禱日"抗議、上恩福堂踩人場, 都是華人教會圈子非常忌諱的 -- 我未必 aggressive, 但肯定犯人禁忌 -- 這就是朋友所講的 aggression吧
我戲謔說蘇穎智花名蘇弱智, 她就說:那是人身攻擊 -- 我費事解釋甚麼是"人身攻擊", 其實正確說, 戲謔說蘇穎智花名蘇弱智,只是"對人不對事"和說貶損侮辱人的衊詞, 並非構成"人身攻擊", 但她對我言論的反應, 對比她對蘇穎智的寬容 (說他有"表達個人意見的自由", 但沒有提及他也對同志"人身攻擊"), 也多少顯示基督徒始終幫返自己人.
記得一宗小插曲, 我去"性文化學會"回應當時"反宗教霸權遊行"的座談,當日就有信徒很不"識做", 高調、直接、不留情面、兜口兜面講、硬繃繃直言,問座談會發言嘉賓 (關啟文, 朱耀明, 還有主持阿蔡志森) 對蘇穎智言論的回應, 當場幾個人面色大變 -- 以為"自己"地方安全, 都比人"偷襲"到, 結果顧左右而言他, 居然不敢評論, 關啟文, 朱耀明說自己沒有"親耳在場"聽到, 不評論 (報紙鋪天蓋地報導都不評論?), 蔡志森是"親耳在場"聽到, 但就不評論 -- 而且最妙就是他們沒有一個"撐"蘇穎智 --- 中間休息後, 他們為防止失控, 結果就不再隨手給台下觀眾自由發問, 而是"挑選"認識的 (有朋友看到他們往往每次都挑中"撐"他們的人, 明顯看出有些人是"媒") -- 在他們的場地, 就好似這裡的基督教版, 異見必定被消音。
張國棟現在都比「時代論壇」封殺，文章多次被拒絕刊登，原因不難明白，他多次「唔識做」，「時代論壇」米飯班主是甚麼人？他們（教會）不同意張國棟，大可以投稿「時代論壇」和他辯論，但採取封殺手段扼殺言論討論空間，正就是今天建制派手法，結果人家想不 aggressive表達都不行。
我相信, 我就算不離開基督教, 我會是以前朋友形容, 是"基督教界長毛", 必定做一些基督教認為是大逆不道的批評衝擊行為。
Wednesday, April 20, 2011
不離教的基督徒 -- 十分怕沒有神
只要看見每日的新聞，小孩夭折、青年英年早逝、中年生活艱苦'、老人晚景淒涼，就是自己平安，也擔憂所愛的人，自然希望天地有一個慈愛的父親日夜看顧自己，禱告他會保護你愛的人、原諒他們的過錯，做父母的感到自己沒有盡父母責任，但為孩子祈禱，然後帶孩子信耶穌，也頓覺自己縱然沒能今生做好，孩子信耶穌來生都不用擔心，自己照顧不到孩子一生一世，祈禱就好似感到有個天父保護自己的孩子 -- 日日看見新聞的天災人禍、艱險的世途、無端飛來的橫禍，冇咩相信自己摯愛在他們所信"全能神"保護下更令自己"放心"。
看見白頭人送黑頭人，白頭人相信自己死去的兒孫只是暫別、先去一個美麗的國度等自己和其他親人，將來大家會相遇，那個白頭人的哀痛可稍微安慰，他們於是能夠以為面對世事無常，因為在他們看,有一個不是無常的神和天堂 -- 一種肯定, 安慰他們.
世界是可怕的、危險的、很多無端飛來的橫禍，任何父母都不能忍受自己子女在他們心目中可怕的世界冒險，最令他們不可以相信的，就是人的禍福，完全不是人所控制，宗教需要是一種尋求"肯定"的需要，耶徒怎樣都要有人告訴他們：everything is under control ，一切都有人睇住掌管，掌管的那個所謂神會特別聽他們禱告、特別"照顧"他們 -- "人地"沒有神，所以地震、海嘯、病痛、不如意就是合理的，他們順利? 說不定是依靠撒旦....總之，耶徒有神照住，真平安! 所以, 當有信徒遭遇橫禍,他們的反應是: 那些信徒是夠時間去見耶神.
為患病信徒禱告，一方面會說神聽到, 患病信徒死去, 說夠時間去見耶神....禱告意義, 忽然不是為要求神成就事情,而是為自己"好過D"
他們卻沒有想過，他們祈禱感謝，其實是要求耶神扭曲自然規律遷就他們的懦弱和無知，他們要的都不是一個公道的神 -- 逃過海嘯的感謝神拯救,也是感謝神不去就那些被海嘯吞噬的人, 為食物感謝神"賜食物. 潔淨食物", 也同樣是感謝神不把清潔食物給非洲的飢餓的人 -- 感謝是諷刺 -- 他們憑咩認為神要特別照顧自己 -- 全部是夜郎自大而已.
他們要溺愛他們的神，滿足他們無法獲得父母的愛的缺乏，他們覺得世人都不及耶穌好，耶穌的愛好完美阿, 他為你們死真是偉大，其實不就是暗中說, 世界沒有人夠資格愛你們,或者, 你們自卑得以為沒人愛你, 或者要求人給你們無條件的愛, 無條件的愛連父母都未必可以比你們，你們只有幻想耶子耶神存在、愛你們 -- 於是，耶神的凶暴你不會理會, 哼, 都只是幾千年前的事情,死的不是我親戚朋友, 耶神可以殺的自然都不是咩好東西....你信他愛你就是，聖經其實是咩、裡面說甚麼東西, 可以不理會
所以一旦要他們發現/承認沒有神，他們比我們這些已經不相信有神的人會更加淒涼 -- 因為他們最終發覺要獨自面對他們眼中可怕的世界，一切都不在掌控中, 祈禱沒有用，善良的人不一定有好報，惡人如毛澤東、希特勒、斯太林等,只是死去, 人死如燈滅, 沒有地獄報應，你自己子女長大離家自立生活, 再也無法保護他們, 他們在信徒心目中可怕的世界冒險、非常脆弱! 還有，人死如燈滅，信徒努力在做甚麼?
我們這些已經不相信有神的人早就知道自己一定要面對一個一切都不在掌控、禍福難料、隨時飛來橫禍、公義要被踐踏的淒涼世界,和信神的一樣, 但我們沒有欺騙自己和別人, 應該傷心憤怒我們傷心憤怒，生離死別, 我們難過、捨不得死去的親人, 我們懂得哀痛後放開, 不去幻想死後有天堂重聚，我們不會坐視不公義去叫人"忍耐、祈禱、盼望、等神審判惡人", 縱然我們甚麼也做不到 (大部分情況是), 我們不會自欺欺人幻想自己祈禱就"做左野", 我們對問題沒有答案,我們就坦白說不知道, 不會好似基督徒那樣, 假裝知道答案, 明明不知道都說"神的作為是難易測度"當係"答案"那樣不誠實.
還有,在基督徒應該站出來的時候 (例如阻止不義、阻止人作惡), 他們只選擇"禱告", 原來"禱告"不但沒有用, 他們的不行動、沉默令作惡者更加囂張, 他們是作惡者沉默的認同人
最痛苦就是，夭折小孩、英年早逝青年,都灰飛煙滅，如果是他們所愛的, 他們就永遠見不到這些人, 那是如何淒涼阿
有人說，沒有神，等於無報應，無天道，惡人作惡不會有報應，現世的弱肉強食及各種形式的欺凌掠奪會更加嚴重。說這話的人不知道，除了個別地方沒有良好社會和法治制度外，弱肉強食及各種形式的欺凌掠奪出現和惡化，往往就是教會告訴人有報應和天道，叫人接納自己遭遇的，期望報應和天道,祈禱, 可以袖手旁觀,說: "申冤在我我必報應", 給自己軟弱、對惡人惡事袖手旁觀的藉口，自己懦弱不揭露不義的藉口，就好似天主教徒不斷為天主教隱瞞包庇神父侵犯兒童一樣，最後會推給天主說天主會懲罰，於是教會隱瞞包庇都可以用這藉口掩飾，然後教會組織人改革社會, 說那些人有天主照顧，天主會報應， 讓弱肉強食及各種形式的欺凌掠奪延續，其中一種形式的欺凌掠奪就是教會。
不錯，不信神的人跟信神的一樣, 都同樣面對世界那一切都不在掌控的狀態、幸福快樂災難悲哀的無常、隨時的飛來橫禍等, 這是人類本來"淒涼"的景況，但不信神的人從來不會說不相信有神的人必然最終幸福快樂平安喜樂或者得到保護，我們本來就承認這世界的慘況, 悲哀, 但會自強地奮鬥和好好把握眼前的幸福, 不去依靠一個不存在的神，這景況不會因為信神或者不信神有根本改變。
可是信徒其實和我們已經不相信有神的人面對同樣的世界, 但就自欺欺人這麼久, 要他們, 特別是相信神多年, 接近一生相信，為此犧牲事業的，去發現/承認沒有神，肯定會崩潰 -- 不少會肯定渴望死後可以去天堂見自己的摯愛, 若發現不會, 盼望一生的要成為泡影, 一生信錯 (我只是信錯23年, 好運的我會不信60年), 信徒在這個比較之下，當然比我和已經不相信有神的人會更加淒涼
已經不相信有神的人或者"淒涼", 但最少是願意面對現實, 即使是淒涼也承認, 不需要好似基督徒那樣, 為所謂"福音"假裝幸福平安喜樂,說謊、自欺欺人說他們比不相信有神的人會更加幸福
基督徒自欺欺人必須繼續, 我可以不繼續, 所以就算是現在, 基督徒都比已經不相信有神的人更加淒涼
看見白頭人送黑頭人，白頭人相信自己死去的兒孫只是暫別、先去一個美麗的國度等自己和其他親人，將來大家會相遇，那個白頭人的哀痛可稍微安慰，他們於是能夠以為面對世事無常，因為在他們看,有一個不是無常的神和天堂 -- 一種肯定, 安慰他們.
世界是可怕的、危險的、很多無端飛來的橫禍，任何父母都不能忍受自己子女在他們心目中可怕的世界冒險，最令他們不可以相信的，就是人的禍福，完全不是人所控制，宗教需要是一種尋求"肯定"的需要，耶徒怎樣都要有人告訴他們：everything is under control ，一切都有人睇住掌管，掌管的那個所謂神會特別聽他們禱告、特別"照顧"他們 -- "人地"沒有神，所以地震、海嘯、病痛、不如意就是合理的，他們順利? 說不定是依靠撒旦....總之，耶徒有神照住，真平安! 所以, 當有信徒遭遇橫禍,他們的反應是: 那些信徒是夠時間去見耶神.
為患病信徒禱告，一方面會說神聽到, 患病信徒死去, 說夠時間去見耶神....禱告意義, 忽然不是為要求神成就事情,而是為自己"好過D"
他們卻沒有想過，他們祈禱感謝，其實是要求耶神扭曲自然規律遷就他們的懦弱和無知，他們要的都不是一個公道的神 -- 逃過海嘯的感謝神拯救,也是感謝神不去就那些被海嘯吞噬的人, 為食物感謝神"賜食物. 潔淨食物", 也同樣是感謝神不把清潔食物給非洲的飢餓的人 -- 感謝是諷刺 -- 他們憑咩認為神要特別照顧自己 -- 全部是夜郎自大而已.
他們要溺愛他們的神，滿足他們無法獲得父母的愛的缺乏，他們覺得世人都不及耶穌好，耶穌的愛好完美阿, 他為你們死真是偉大，其實不就是暗中說, 世界沒有人夠資格愛你們,或者, 你們自卑得以為沒人愛你, 或者要求人給你們無條件的愛, 無條件的愛連父母都未必可以比你們，你們只有幻想耶子耶神存在、愛你們 -- 於是，耶神的凶暴你不會理會, 哼, 都只是幾千年前的事情,死的不是我親戚朋友, 耶神可以殺的自然都不是咩好東西....你信他愛你就是，聖經其實是咩、裡面說甚麼東西, 可以不理會
所以一旦要他們發現/承認沒有神，他們比我們這些已經不相信有神的人會更加淒涼 -- 因為他們最終發覺要獨自面對他們眼中可怕的世界，一切都不在掌控中, 祈禱沒有用，善良的人不一定有好報，惡人如毛澤東、希特勒、斯太林等,只是死去, 人死如燈滅, 沒有地獄報應，你自己子女長大離家自立生活, 再也無法保護他們, 他們在信徒心目中可怕的世界冒險、非常脆弱! 還有，人死如燈滅，信徒努力在做甚麼?
我們這些已經不相信有神的人早就知道自己一定要面對一個一切都不在掌控、禍福難料、隨時飛來橫禍、公義要被踐踏的淒涼世界,和信神的一樣, 但我們沒有欺騙自己和別人, 應該傷心憤怒我們傷心憤怒，生離死別, 我們難過、捨不得死去的親人, 我們懂得哀痛後放開, 不去幻想死後有天堂重聚，我們不會坐視不公義去叫人"忍耐、祈禱、盼望、等神審判惡人", 縱然我們甚麼也做不到 (大部分情況是), 我們不會自欺欺人幻想自己祈禱就"做左野", 我們對問題沒有答案,我們就坦白說不知道, 不會好似基督徒那樣, 假裝知道答案, 明明不知道都說"神的作為是難易測度"當係"答案"那樣不誠實.
還有,在基督徒應該站出來的時候 (例如阻止不義、阻止人作惡), 他們只選擇"禱告", 原來"禱告"不但沒有用, 他們的不行動、沉默令作惡者更加囂張, 他們是作惡者沉默的認同人
最痛苦就是，夭折小孩、英年早逝青年,都灰飛煙滅，如果是他們所愛的, 他們就永遠見不到這些人, 那是如何淒涼阿
有人說，沒有神，等於無報應，無天道，惡人作惡不會有報應，現世的弱肉強食及各種形式的欺凌掠奪會更加嚴重。說這話的人不知道，除了個別地方沒有良好社會和法治制度外，弱肉強食及各種形式的欺凌掠奪出現和惡化，往往就是教會告訴人有報應和天道，叫人接納自己遭遇的，期望報應和天道,祈禱, 可以袖手旁觀,說: "申冤在我我必報應", 給自己軟弱、對惡人惡事袖手旁觀的藉口，自己懦弱不揭露不義的藉口，就好似天主教徒不斷為天主教隱瞞包庇神父侵犯兒童一樣，最後會推給天主說天主會懲罰，於是教會隱瞞包庇都可以用這藉口掩飾，然後教會組織人改革社會, 說那些人有天主照顧，天主會報應， 讓弱肉強食及各種形式的欺凌掠奪延續，其中一種形式的欺凌掠奪就是教會。
不錯，不信神的人跟信神的一樣, 都同樣面對世界那一切都不在掌控的狀態、幸福快樂災難悲哀的無常、隨時的飛來橫禍等, 這是人類本來"淒涼"的景況，但不信神的人從來不會說不相信有神的人必然最終幸福快樂平安喜樂或者得到保護，我們本來就承認這世界的慘況, 悲哀, 但會自強地奮鬥和好好把握眼前的幸福, 不去依靠一個不存在的神，這景況不會因為信神或者不信神有根本改變。
可是信徒其實和我們已經不相信有神的人面對同樣的世界, 但就自欺欺人這麼久, 要他們, 特別是相信神多年, 接近一生相信，為此犧牲事業的，去發現/承認沒有神，肯定會崩潰 -- 不少會肯定渴望死後可以去天堂見自己的摯愛, 若發現不會, 盼望一生的要成為泡影, 一生信錯 (我只是信錯23年, 好運的我會不信60年), 信徒在這個比較之下，當然比我和已經不相信有神的人會更加淒涼
已經不相信有神的人或者"淒涼", 但最少是願意面對現實, 即使是淒涼也承認, 不需要好似基督徒那樣, 為所謂"福音"假裝幸福平安喜樂,說謊、自欺欺人說他們比不相信有神的人會更加幸福
基督徒自欺欺人必須繼續, 我可以不繼續, 所以就算是現在, 基督徒都比已經不相信有神的人更加淒涼
Thursday, March 17, 2011
Evid3nc3 製作 -- 神的歷史
公元800-900年﹐最早的舊約寫成﹐ 只有出埃及記和部份創世記﹐裡面所載的希伯來人信仰是受到他們居住的週邊民族原始信仰影響
亞伯拉罕拜的是 El Shaddai
雅各拜的是 El Elyon
前者是山神﹐ 後者是當時多神信仰中﹐ 眾神之父
後來出現的YHWH (華人誤譯為耶和華)﹐ 是之後出現的戰神
此外古希伯來人也和其它民族一樣拜掌管風雨穀物的 Baal 巴力和他妻子(掌管生育﹑性)的 Asherah 亞舍拉﹐這種多神信仰形態和古希臘人類同﹐ 即不同人類所關注的事情有它們各自的神所掌管
YHWH抬頭是因為希伯來人受到侵略威脅﹐有人認為需要重新拜戰神獲得保護而推動的
而歷史的發展導致YHWH終于取代了所有希伯來人所拜其它的神﹐ 而且過程裡面把舊約篡改﹐ 企圖掩飾他們過往的多神信仰歷史﹐把YHWH描寫成為自有永有﹑獨一真神﹐而且編造出埃及的神話﹐鼓勵流亡的希伯來人保持盼望﹐期望復國回鄉﹐ 就好似在出埃及記那樣有YHWH打救﹐而且為了鞏固一神信仰﹐ 編造出YHWH如何滅絕拜其它神的民族﹑和把蘇美爾人洪水滅世的神話寫入去﹐ 希望不斷用威嚇來警告希伯來人別拜其它神。
YHWH嗜血殘暴的性格就是一群好戰﹑仇恨外族和其它信仰的狂熱者筆下的戰神﹐ 昇格為”真神“的結果。
《申命記》把這種排他﹑要求絕對忠誠的神人關係寫出﹐並且用裡面編造的屠殺拜別神者的命令﹐來確立這種非常嚴厲﹑排他﹑不寬容的信仰。
Wednesday, March 16, 2011
Some interesting dialogues with Christians
It all started from this post by someone:
[反基勿入]研究聖經既學者發現聖經充滿矛盾，各位基督徒點睇？ E-mail 此主題給朋友
[按此打開] [隱藏]
例子一：
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Mark 15:16-39)
vs.
Father into your hands I commend my spirit.(Luke 23:46)
MARK個VERSION耶穌就好絕望咁死，LUKE個VERSION耶穌就好放心咁死
邊個錯？
例子二：
An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. (Matthew 12:38)
vs.
五餅二魚(John 6), raising Lazarus from the dead (John 11)
MATTHEW講到明話耶穌唔會行神蹟，JOHN就語錄左好多耶穌既神蹟
邊個錯？
例子三：
每種動物有一對上左方舟
vs.
每種動物有七對上左方舟
邊個錯？
各位基督徒點睇？反基唔好搞事
=====================================================
This started a string of arguments and these are the conversations:
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 01:59 PM 發表
Since you know where to search for the contradictions on Bible, I am sure you know where to find the answers.
My reply:
What you say makes no sense -- contradictions are contradictions, they could be no answers to them -- except perhaps the writers of the Bible really did a pathetic job of proofreading and editing.
I do have one argument for you to defend your faith and the Bible:
If the Bible makes sense, have no contradictions, then it amounts to reason and it is "believable" by reason -- then there is NO need of faith. You Christians needed to use faith in believing God -- the contradictions are there to let YOU exercise your FAITH. The more absurd, contradictory, repulsive, offensive and nonsense the Bible gets the more FAITH you will need to believe it and if you BELIEVE the absurd, contradictory, repulsive, offensive and nonsense of the Bible, that proves your FAITH.
Haha, isn't that neat)
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 02:20 PM 發表
To some rising from the dead contradict the law of science...
Now you are talking abut proof reading and editing of Bible..
My reply:
Why not proof reading and editing ? At least you can make it consistent even at your most absurd account
or do you actually want your Bible to be more absurd so you prefer it to contradict science, logic, reason and even itself ? so that you can show to us that YOU HAVE GREAT FAITH
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 02:52 PM 發表
Yes, this may seem absurd and offensive and often repulsive that Christians need to have faith to believe that non-believers will be left to burn in Hell.
This need lots of faith..
My reply:
Well, indeed it is very repulsive, a father punishes his children for disobedience by death........even more repulsive is you all get to watch the torture as an entertainment at Heaven -- hahahaha
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 11:57 PM 發表
Which part of the bible said that Christians get to watch the torture as an entertainment at Heaven?
My reply:
Oh Well, you like repulsive things do you ? Why not make the Bible more repulsive so that you can exercise your faith ?
Even if it is NOT in the Bible, if it makes Christianity more repulsive, you can have more faith ? You don't even care if the Bible is contradictory, why so concern if something is in the Bible then ? (For one thing a lot of stuffs WERE ADDED TO THE BIBLE, why care about this then ?)
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 12:57 AM 發表
If you think mocking Christians will make you any happier, feel free to do so.
It won't make you any better than me or other fellow Christians.
My reply:
Yeah.....more of your deluded and arrogant thoughts -- me no better than you or other fellow Christians -- at least I am not as perverted as you and your fellow Christians who can believe in the most repulsive and perverted dogma and said it is FAITH - this is just mindless conformity
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 12:53 AM 發表
引用: 原帖由 思覺老師 於 2011-3-15 12:34 AM 發表
The above contradictions were taken from "Jesus, Interrupted" by Bart D.Ehrman.
I am more than half way through the book and have not come across the sort of "answers" you are referring to.
bigmama:
I knew that you are reading some sort of books like that..
There many different bible expert. If you choose to listen to them, that is your choice.
This will only leads to meanless debate as Pizza4 said.
My reply:
Well well, when you just dismissed the books by Bart D. Ehrman so hastily and so arrogantly, we know why WITH YOU debate is MEANINGLESS -- debate with a person that believes in the most illogical, repulsive, absurd, nonsensical, twisted, self-contradictary whilst debate requires logic, reasoning and evidence, means that one is just dealing with a "thug in debate"
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:25 PM 發表
There is no need to write such a long page for just calling me a "thug in debate" and I will call you "idiot".
My reply:
Oh no, you just don't get it do you ? I can write elaborate prose to you to show how much of a thug in debate you are, and your response just serves as such a vivid proof!
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:36 PM 發表
Ha Ha.. no, all you have shown is what an idiot that you really are.
The more you write, the bigger the idiot you are..
My reply:
Thanks for providing me a lot of scope for mocking Christians -- you failed to use logic, reasoning and evidence, but rather use prejudice, Kettle logic and childish response -- never have I seen you able to provide any coherent, logical and evidence based argument -- I think if you call one that can use coherent, logical and evidence based arguments an idiot, what can one call a person like you (cannot provide any coherent, logical and evidence based argument ) ?
Pick one
(1) Vapid
(2) Retarded
(3) Perverted
(4) Gello-head
....
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:43 PM 發表
Let me join you..
So how's your project in trying to get this "Cat" back to church??
My reply
I offer these conditions, and I "MIGHT" consider going back to church
(1) Find a church that follow John Shelby Spong's book "Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers In Exile"
(2) The church has to accept same-sex union, and accept people can be heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual, and stop discriminating people based on sexuality
(3) The church would admit that the Bible is a human document, not inspired, mythical and no shred of enlightement, except maybe for amusement
(4) The church will also admit that there is no Creation, no Adam & Eve, no Abraham/Isaac/Jacob/Joseph/Moses, the Exodus story was something cooked up by Jawist priests
(5) The church will also admit that the Pentatauch was not by Moses but edited, added to by different groups of people
(6) The church will also accept all current scientific findings explanations so far, and including the theory of Evolution which is the best explanation of biodiversity, and admit evolution occurred and produces all living things on Earth including us, and it is still occuring
(7) The church will stop judging others based on religion affiliations
(8) The church will cease poselytizing
(9) Bible reading, prayers and learning Bible will NOT be mandatory in schools founded by Christian affiliated organizations (remember they used money from the public purse)
.....
Just my first tentative list, I will add more as it comes to my mind
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 05:39 PM 發表
Round one....catwoman showing her razor-like sharp claws against bigmama, bigmama swiftly move her body around and return with a heavy punch!!!!
haha
My reply:
That is not a heavy punch but a futile attempt to save her already shaken ego.....
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:14 PM 發表
oh by the way, if church and the whole religious system are such a flaw nowadays. It wouldn't able to match up to the "church" back in the NT time. After all, they nailed the son of god using one of ...
My reply:
Do you know that it is not "the church" who nailed Jesus, but the Romans -- get yourself a decent Bible study book....
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 05:59 PM 發表
heheh..so bigmama, u give up la ^_^ she has already got a church of her own~
My reply:
You again demonstrated a flawed thinking -- nontheist or atheists or freethinkers are unchurched.
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:20 PM 發表
yes ^_^, i don't think i am able to live up to her standard ^_^. For myself, is under the influence of a self-contradictory of religious concepts rooted from basic psyclological human fears as he ...
My reply:
basic psyclological human fears / needs are what make us human
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:33 PM 發表
Got you!!...hahahahaa...
u don't get my meaning do you?~~~
My reply:
Don't play smart aleck or these stupid tricks -- say what you want to say and cut this kind of "don't get my meaning" crap -- I dislike this kind of word acrobats because this is pure dishonesty
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 07:17 PM 發表
hahahaha...me ng play lor dinner time ^_^
u so smart, u figure that out urself la~~~~ sayonara!!!
Suddenly got a good appetite~~~
My reply:
just stop your spiritual masturbating and 阿Q thing
This just add to your despicable quality
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 07:26 PM 發表
ai forget it..or u say all christians have no integrity other than having a smart mouth
"heheh..so bigmama, u give up la ^_^ she has already got a church of her own~"
For people who don't belie ...
My reply:
don't use "metaphor" as an excuse to abuse language. Otherwise you can use metaphor to justify rape, child molestation etc
This is a clear sign your mind is warped and perverted --- metaphor is not an excuse for you to deviate word's meanings as far as you wish
I am just wondering, perhaps you may use the metaphor excuse just to murder me -- and I am willing to try that -- choose a way to murder me, stab me ? poison me ? burn me alive ? It's all metaphors if you wish, isn't it ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:01 PM 發表
So, how did it feel of being insulted?
My reply:
別偷換概念﹐ 你這不是insult 而是deceive
(Don't try to mislead...this is not insult but deception)
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:26 PM 發表
ok....haha
So, how did it feel of being deceived? There are a lot more adjectives that you can use if that would make u feel any better and less defensive ~~
My reply:
I am not concerned about semantics but facts -- and it seems that you don't care about facts but semantics -- if you don't care about facts, then you are not honest and rational
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:26 PM 發表
ok....haha
So, how did it feel of being deceived? There are a lot more adjectives that you can use if that would make u feel any better and less defensive ~~
My reply:
One more point, yes, I found that I was deceived -- by Christianity -- but I let go of my ego, despite I invested a good part of my life on it, I accepted evidences, logic and reasoning -- but how about you ? or the rest of Christendom ? Deceived for 2000 years or more and choose to be deceived again and again... it is not so bad to feel deceived, it is worse to fail to feel you are deceived -- you are pathetic
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:50 PM 發表
*long sigh*
talking about the use of language, i am learning from you actually
facts? what facts you want to talk about now~ About the fact that you do have your own church, your own religio ...
My reply:
我似乎沒有說我要求my own church -- 我要求的是基督教改變﹐ 你是否那樣愚蠢以為基督教教會可以不變﹖
Facts ? 要我educate 你﹖ 我不需要人educate﹐ 而是有一顆尋求真相知識的心
你沒有﹐ 就要人幫你﹐ 你真沒用
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
There are always people around who will use religion as a mean to control/manipulate people. Bible stated that long time ago.
My reply:
Why does it has to exempt Christianity, the Apostles and even Jesus ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
The point is, whether one can grow beyond that...just gain personal experience between you and the creator himself. If failed, there will be a lot more miss cat coming to the world. Angry, feelling being cheated, used, deceived, and harbored that feeling till the very last breath
My reply:
The personal experiences you referred to are tricks you minds played on you, just like people feel that Krishna, Harry Porter are reall
You are just trying to minimize things by saying that they are "feelings" and not facts -- why do you assume that Christianity is TRUE a priori without investigating yourself and judging that ALL church leavers are just "feeling cheated, used, deceived, and harbored that feeling" instead of YOU BEING DELUDED, SELF-DECEIVING and HARBOURED THAT FALSE HOPE UNTIL YOUR VERY LAST BREATH
So called experience with the Creator requires that the Creator to be TRUE, not just at personal experience level BUT also OBJECTIVELY TRUE, DID YOU INVESTIGATE IT ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
I passed your stage already. I was like you before. You were a mirror of my past self.
My reply:
Don't be so self-conceited and assuming you understand me or you were like me.
What knowledge do you have?
I think you are just the same as the Seventh Day Adventists who were distraught when their doom's day prophecy failed by "managed to passed that stage", or the Mormon's or Jehovah's Witness (who predicted the end of the World), who once felt deceived, cheated, used -- and then hung on to THEIR FAITH just as YOU HUNG ON TO YOUR FAITH
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
If it is how you want to use your life like this, fighting to overflow god, so be it.
If this course will lead you to have a happy, meaningful and a fullfilling life, you have my very blessing
No one knows what happen when we die. I hope at that moment you don't feel any sense of regret
My reply:
Then how do you KNOW what happen when we die ?
YOU ARE NOT MUCH MORE CERTAIN THAN ANY OTHER person
Moreover, your belief is NOT evidence-based but based on mindless faith, as well as assuming that the Bible is inspired, which is NOT -- until YOU read the books by Bart D. Erhman, otherwise you have no grounds, no support to make your claims or to say you are rational
I don't need anybody's blessing - save you arrogance to yourself when you want to rape a woman
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
There are always people around who will use religion as a mean to control/manipulate people. Bible stated that long time ago.
The point is, whether one can grow beyond that...just gain personal exp ...
My reply:
Just give you one last food for thought
If the Bible is divinely inspired, why is it that God did not ensure its transmission is not free from tampering, editing and preserve ALL the originals ?
Secondly, if the Bible is divinely inspired, why is that God allow so many contradictions to creep in ? To test your faith ? To want you to give up rational thinking so that even Christianity is repulsive, absurd and perverted you can accept it with FAITH?
Thirdly, given nearly 2000 years for God to work, don't you find that this God is incompetent to keep procrastinating the End times and still having so much more unconverted (not to mention the people to leave the faith) -- try this on a salesman, you will probably fire him/her. So why do you tolerate this for a supposedly "omnipotent" God ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
time:
親愛的，這一件事你們不可忘記：在主看來，一日如千年，千年如一日
主決不耽延他的應許，像有些人以為他是耽延的一樣；其實他是寬容你們，不願有一人滅亡，卻願人人都悔改。
但主的日子必要像賊一樣來到。在那日，天必轟然一聲地消失，所有元素都因烈火而融化；地和地上所有的，都要被燒毀。
彼得後書 3 (i.e. GOD SENSE OF TIME IS WAY DIFFERENT FROM HUMAN'S TIMELINE)
My reply
這樣同回答“人的意念不能夠理解神” - God works in mysterious ways 一樣﹐ 不是答案
如果按照你的標準﹐ God sense of morality is WAY DIFFERENT FROM HUMAN's standard, 於是神就可以屠殺大人﹑細路﹑BB﹐ 你都要稱讚神﹖
同樣地﹐ God's sense of "suffering" is way different from human's sense about suffering -- 我現在明白為何你們咁有能力﹑忍耐到全地球不同地方受極度苦難都可以笑得出﹑感謝神啦﹐ 然後當全地球無數人﹑幾千年受盡苦﹐ 耶穌響個十字架上受6-7小時苦你們可以呼天搶地慘過死老豆咁﹐ 我都開始明白啦
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
In conclusion, we don't have the intellectual level required to take God on this case why there are so few being saved. We don't have the actual data nor what will happen during the end times. But of course, you can choose to challenge god as always Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind.
My reply:
You are contradicting yourself -- if you don't have the intellectual level required to take God on this case why there are so few being saved or the actual data nor what will happen during the end times, how can you defend God as though you know so much about God ?
When you say: you can choose to challenge god as always Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind
Are you threatening me then?
OK, this argument works against Christians too: you can choose to defend and follow God, Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
numbers:
以賽亞指著以色列人大聲說：“以色列子孫的數目雖然多如海沙，得救的不過是剩下的餘數；因為主必在地上迅速而徹底地成就他的話。”
又如以賽亞早已說過的：“如果不是萬軍之主給我們存留後裔，我們早就像所多瑪和蛾摩拉一樣了。”
羅馬書 9 (GOD KNOWS THE FEW WILL BE SAVED, EVEN FOR THE JEWS)
耶穌經過各城各鄉，往耶路撒冷去，沿途教導人。
有一個人問他：“主啊，是不是只有很少的人得救呢？”他對眾人說：
“你們應當竭力進窄門！我告訴你們，將來許多人要進去，卻是不能。
等到家主起來關上門，你們站在門外叩門說：‘主啊，給我們開門！’他要回答你們：‘我不知道你們是從哪裡來的。’
路加福音 13 (MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS AND WORK ON YOUR SALVATION. OTHERWISE, YOU WILL BE LOST FOREVER AS WELL)
My reply:
Now you are cherry-picking from the Bible to find verses that support your ad-hoc argument in defense of the "numbers"
In fact, Paul says the opposite: 提摩太前書 2:4 他願意萬人得救、明白真道．
So are you saying that God only has a "wish" but he cannot make it happen ? Some omnipotent, benevolent God....
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:53 AM 發表
You live in a box.. and the box is called "Science"
And you live in a world without love since you cannot scientificly prove that Love exist..
Really sorry for you.. but I guess you don't need that since you have already classify yourself just another animal living on this planet what eat, sleep, and poo...
My reply:
You are living in a prison called FAITH and PREJUDICE.
You, like me, is also one of the species of animal, homo sapiens, a kind of animal living on this planet what eat, sleep, and poo -- animals love too, you are being ignorant and arrogant to even deny that animals like dogs, cats, birds, dolphins, elephants, apes have the capability of love -- zoologists observing mammals have literally documented so many cases of animal exhibiting romantic and maternal love that only idiots will say animals cannot love.
we are also a kind of advanced animal with capability to love like many others, but also a capability of cognitive power, creativity, imagination and abstract thinking, just that our brains are so evolved to this extent.
Being scientifically minded does not mean a person is not living in a world without love -- love exist because it occurs naturally around us, and love and can be proven to exist scientifically because love has to manifest in loving behavior, and this is observable, and moreover, during different types of loves, our brain and hormones are there for us to see.
Love is actually not so "unscientific" or "supernatural" as you imagine or being taught in church -- whether it is maternal love (parent love), romantic love or fellow love, it can be seen and observed in areas of our brain that lights up, and the flow of a hormone called oxytocin.
Science, as we now know, is beginning even to dash away the mystery of love and emotions
http://www.oxytocin.org/oxytoc/love-science.html
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
I have not yet found any contradcitions of what you mentioned from above. Having said that, i guess you can prepare a long list of flaws and errors recorded in the bible that we are wrong and you are right.
My reply:
I don't have to prepare that list, it is well known, even among Biblical scholars, please don't be such a lazy bone and requiring others to spoon feed you, find it out yourself -- KNOW YOUR BIBLE
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
Ok, you are treating the Bible like a phone book But, is the purpose of the bible should be treated like a phone book with 0 error? The purpose of the bible is to show life. I truly don't know how to explain it to you since you abandoned this life already.
My reply:
Explanations, as long as they are logical, reasonable, evidence based, do not need an a priori "acceptance of life" (versus your "you abandoned this life" judgment) in order it can be convincing and compelling.
你要我重新接納你所謂 “abandoned life" 才可以解釋比我﹐ 可能有以下原因
(1) You want me to give up reasoning, logic and rational thinking -- this hardly is a gesture of goodwill, only a gesture of enslavement and mind control
(2) You just run out of all reasoning, logic and rational explanations, and all you can is to provide circular logic, kettle logic or other absurd "ideas", and pretending them to be "explanations" -- but for me to accept these circular logic, kettle logic or other absurd "ideas", I have to be same as you -- you judge me only on the grounds whether I believe the same God as you, NOT by the merit of the individual arguments -- so please stop pretending you are treating me as equals or you are showing charity to me -- all you have been doing is patronizing
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
And what if God intentionally leave the errors there for us to critic? Would that be ridiculously possible? Why not? God knows we are no super computers.
My reply:
"what if" ? So all of your belief are just based on "what if " wild guesses which cannot be substantiated ?
So your faith includes conjecturing possibilities that are so far fetched ?
Or is it you are so desperate to cling on to this faith that any far fetched and absurd notions, as long as it shore up your faith, you will use it ?
This shows that you are really admitting your failure in facts, rational thinking and evidence -- WHY NOT JUST SAY YOU CANNOT ANSWER ME RATHER THAN MAKING A COMPLETE FOOL OF YOURSELF???
I think, I have given you way to much credit for being reasonable -- when it comes to your "precious faith", all of your rationality break down.
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
Thru out the history God is using ordinary people, common people just like u and me to accomplish his will. The choice is yours, you can call God nuts, or you can call God being graceful, for allowing us to transmit his holy words even we couldn't get everything correctly 100%. If you are a person of grace, you can see that. If you are a perfectionist and a hard critics for yourself, you will see numerous of flaws and contradictions.
Let me guess, so you are admitting God is NOT a perfectionist, NOT a hard critic -- alright, why doesn't God take YOUR ADVICE and stop being a PERFECTIONIST, and just ACCEPT us and SAVE us as we are, not requiring us to change, to believe in Him, to repent etc ?
Grace does not mean you allow gross errors or repulsive teachings, such as slaying of children, throwing babies onto rocks to crush them, looting and plundering people, drowning every being on Earth just because God himself is not a PERFECTIONIST so he cannot make us perfect etc.
Insisting the Bible should be error free is because of YOU -- you Christians claims to base your belief on your BIBLE, it is your moral compass, a guide on life -- but hey hey hey -- it has numerous of flaws and contradictions plain to ordinary people, common people just like you and me -- and you said that the Bible can at the same time be RELIABLE but also has numerous of flaws and contradictions -- you are like saying that a husband has fidelity to his wife even if he goes out to have sex with prostitutes once every other night or have a romantic relationship with another woman -- tell that with stop being a perfectionist and self-critic ?
原帖由 RS_Latch 於 2011-3-16 09:56 AM 發表
Why waste time? She just wanna find "God in the test tube", basically hoping to find the statement that "A and !A" is true. Then, she will keep asking other stupid questions one after another.
My reply:
RS_Latch﹐ 作大話使唔使作到咁﹖ 你話我 ”basically hoping to find the statement that "A and !A" is true.“﹐ 請問我在咩言論﹑討論過程裡面顯示過我這樣的企圖和想法﹖
你維護基督教﹐ 唔該都顧及你個人既誠信 -- 作大話進行這種人格謀殺﹐ 也實在卑鄙了點
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:47 AM 發表
If the Bible is divinely inspired, why is it that God did not ensure its transmission is not free from tampering, editing and preserve ALL the originals ?
(Blue text) Why do we need to preserve all the original to testify that the Bible is divinely inspiried? Jesus was there at that time, he performed plenty of miricles but people did not believe in Him. So it is not the matter of any originals or not. It is all about the people themselves.
My reply:
The words in blue up there is based on what is recorded in the Bible we have -- so if the Bible is being tampered/edited/added to etc, how can you be sure that those WERE THE ORIGINAL account and NOT A LATER FABRICATION ?
FAITH again ?
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:47 AM 發表
Secondly, if the Bible is divinely inspired, why is that God allow so many contradictions to creep in ? To test your faith ? To want you to give up rational thinking so that even Christianity is repulsive, absurd and perverted you can accept it with FAITH?
(Blue text) Are they really contradictions? Or just questions waiting to be answered? Were you there? Any evidence that they really contradict each others??
My reply:
To name just two contradictions
(1) What is the year at which Jesus born
Not later than 4 BCE -- in Matthew it is reported that Jesus was born during the times of King Herod
After 6 CE -- in Luke, it is reported that Jesus was born during the term of Quirinius as Governor of Judea and the census on Judea (census by Roman Empire could not have occurred BEFORE 6 CE as only by 6CE did the province of Judea became annexed to the Roman empire and thus taxation policy of Roman Empire applies, before that they were treated as foreign land which submitted to Roman Empire's force)
(2) Was Jesus crucified BEFORE he had the Passover Meal or AFTER
BEFORE -- Gospel of John
AFTER -- Matthew, Luke and Mark
(3) Who was the grandfather of Jesus ?
Jacob or Heli?
Don't try to pull the Mary side of the geneology thing here
(a) A patriarchal society NO geneology of women would be kept
(b) none of it says that Heli was Joseph's "father-in-law"
Of course, if you can accept that the Bible can be edited and tampered with, I think you should consider praying that somebody will fund a full re-edit of the Bible to edit out all of the contradictions....
[反基勿入]研究聖經既學者發現聖經充滿矛盾，各位基督徒點睇？ E-mail 此主題給朋友
[按此打開] [隱藏]
例子一：
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Mark 15:16-39)
vs.
Father into your hands I commend my spirit.(Luke 23:46)
MARK個VERSION耶穌就好絕望咁死，LUKE個VERSION耶穌就好放心咁死
邊個錯？
例子二：
An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. (Matthew 12:38)
vs.
五餅二魚(John 6), raising Lazarus from the dead (John 11)
MATTHEW講到明話耶穌唔會行神蹟，JOHN就語錄左好多耶穌既神蹟
邊個錯？
例子三：
每種動物有一對上左方舟
vs.
每種動物有七對上左方舟
邊個錯？
各位基督徒點睇？反基唔好搞事
=====================================================
This started a string of arguments and these are the conversations:
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 01:59 PM 發表
Since you know where to search for the contradictions on Bible, I am sure you know where to find the answers.
My reply:
What you say makes no sense -- contradictions are contradictions, they could be no answers to them -- except perhaps the writers of the Bible really did a pathetic job of proofreading and editing.
I do have one argument for you to defend your faith and the Bible:
If the Bible makes sense, have no contradictions, then it amounts to reason and it is "believable" by reason -- then there is NO need of faith. You Christians needed to use faith in believing God -- the contradictions are there to let YOU exercise your FAITH. The more absurd, contradictory, repulsive, offensive and nonsense the Bible gets the more FAITH you will need to believe it and if you BELIEVE the absurd, contradictory, repulsive, offensive and nonsense of the Bible, that proves your FAITH.
Haha, isn't that neat)
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 02:20 PM 發表
To some rising from the dead contradict the law of science...
Now you are talking abut proof reading and editing of Bible..
My reply:
Why not proof reading and editing ? At least you can make it consistent even at your most absurd account
or do you actually want your Bible to be more absurd so you prefer it to contradict science, logic, reason and even itself ? so that you can show to us that YOU HAVE GREAT FAITH
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 02:52 PM 發表
Yes, this may seem absurd and offensive and often repulsive that Christians need to have faith to believe that non-believers will be left to burn in Hell.
This need lots of faith..
My reply:
Well, indeed it is very repulsive, a father punishes his children for disobedience by death........even more repulsive is you all get to watch the torture as an entertainment at Heaven -- hahahaha
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 11:57 PM 發表
Which part of the bible said that Christians get to watch the torture as an entertainment at Heaven?
My reply:
Oh Well, you like repulsive things do you ? Why not make the Bible more repulsive so that you can exercise your faith ?
Even if it is NOT in the Bible, if it makes Christianity more repulsive, you can have more faith ? You don't even care if the Bible is contradictory, why so concern if something is in the Bible then ? (For one thing a lot of stuffs WERE ADDED TO THE BIBLE, why care about this then ?)
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 12:57 AM 發表
If you think mocking Christians will make you any happier, feel free to do so.
It won't make you any better than me or other fellow Christians.
My reply:
Yeah.....more of your deluded and arrogant thoughts -- me no better than you or other fellow Christians -- at least I am not as perverted as you and your fellow Christians who can believe in the most repulsive and perverted dogma and said it is FAITH - this is just mindless conformity
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 12:53 AM 發表
引用: 原帖由 思覺老師 於 2011-3-15 12:34 AM 發表
The above contradictions were taken from "Jesus, Interrupted" by Bart D.Ehrman.
I am more than half way through the book and have not come across the sort of "answers" you are referring to.
bigmama:
I knew that you are reading some sort of books like that..
There many different bible expert. If you choose to listen to them, that is your choice.
This will only leads to meanless debate as Pizza4 said.
My reply:
Well well, when you just dismissed the books by Bart D. Ehrman so hastily and so arrogantly, we know why WITH YOU debate is MEANINGLESS -- debate with a person that believes in the most illogical, repulsive, absurd, nonsensical, twisted, self-contradictary whilst debate requires logic, reasoning and evidence, means that one is just dealing with a "thug in debate"
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:25 PM 發表
There is no need to write such a long page for just calling me a "thug in debate" and I will call you "idiot".
My reply:
Oh no, you just don't get it do you ? I can write elaborate prose to you to show how much of a thug in debate you are, and your response just serves as such a vivid proof!
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:36 PM 發表
Ha Ha.. no, all you have shown is what an idiot that you really are.
The more you write, the bigger the idiot you are..
My reply:
Thanks for providing me a lot of scope for mocking Christians -- you failed to use logic, reasoning and evidence, but rather use prejudice, Kettle logic and childish response -- never have I seen you able to provide any coherent, logical and evidence based argument -- I think if you call one that can use coherent, logical and evidence based arguments an idiot, what can one call a person like you (cannot provide any coherent, logical and evidence based argument ) ?
Pick one
(1) Vapid
(2) Retarded
(3) Perverted
(4) Gello-head
....
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:43 PM 發表
Let me join you..
So how's your project in trying to get this "Cat" back to church??
My reply
I offer these conditions, and I "MIGHT" consider going back to church
(1) Find a church that follow John Shelby Spong's book "Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers In Exile"
(2) The church has to accept same-sex union, and accept people can be heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual, and stop discriminating people based on sexuality
(3) The church would admit that the Bible is a human document, not inspired, mythical and no shred of enlightement, except maybe for amusement
(4) The church will also admit that there is no Creation, no Adam & Eve, no Abraham/Isaac/Jacob/Joseph/Moses, the Exodus story was something cooked up by Jawist priests
(5) The church will also admit that the Pentatauch was not by Moses but edited, added to by different groups of people
(6) The church will also accept all current scientific findings explanations so far, and including the theory of Evolution which is the best explanation of biodiversity, and admit evolution occurred and produces all living things on Earth including us, and it is still occuring
(7) The church will stop judging others based on religion affiliations
(8) The church will cease poselytizing
(9) Bible reading, prayers and learning Bible will NOT be mandatory in schools founded by Christian affiliated organizations (remember they used money from the public purse)
.....
Just my first tentative list, I will add more as it comes to my mind
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 05:39 PM 發表
Round one....catwoman showing her razor-like sharp claws against bigmama, bigmama swiftly move her body around and return with a heavy punch!!!!
haha
My reply:
That is not a heavy punch but a futile attempt to save her already shaken ego.....
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:14 PM 發表
oh by the way, if church and the whole religious system are such a flaw nowadays. It wouldn't able to match up to the "church" back in the NT time. After all, they nailed the son of god using one of ...
My reply:
Do you know that it is not "the church" who nailed Jesus, but the Romans -- get yourself a decent Bible study book....
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 05:59 PM 發表
heheh..so bigmama, u give up la ^_^ she has already got a church of her own~
My reply:
You again demonstrated a flawed thinking -- nontheist or atheists or freethinkers are unchurched.
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:20 PM 發表
yes ^_^, i don't think i am able to live up to her standard ^_^. For myself, is under the influence of a self-contradictory of religious concepts rooted from basic psyclological human fears as he ...
My reply:
basic psyclological human fears / needs are what make us human
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:33 PM 發表
Got you!!...hahahahaa...
u don't get my meaning do you?~~~
My reply:
Don't play smart aleck or these stupid tricks -- say what you want to say and cut this kind of "don't get my meaning" crap -- I dislike this kind of word acrobats because this is pure dishonesty
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 07:17 PM 發表
hahahaha...me ng play lor dinner time ^_^
u so smart, u figure that out urself la~~~~ sayonara!!!
Suddenly got a good appetite~~~
My reply:
just stop your spiritual masturbating and 阿Q thing
This just add to your despicable quality
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 07:26 PM 發表
ai forget it..or u say all christians have no integrity other than having a smart mouth
"heheh..so bigmama, u give up la ^_^ she has already got a church of her own~"
For people who don't belie ...
My reply:
don't use "metaphor" as an excuse to abuse language. Otherwise you can use metaphor to justify rape, child molestation etc
This is a clear sign your mind is warped and perverted --- metaphor is not an excuse for you to deviate word's meanings as far as you wish
I am just wondering, perhaps you may use the metaphor excuse just to murder me -- and I am willing to try that -- choose a way to murder me, stab me ? poison me ? burn me alive ? It's all metaphors if you wish, isn't it ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:01 PM 發表
So, how did it feel of being insulted?
My reply:
別偷換概念﹐ 你這不是insult 而是deceive
(Don't try to mislead...this is not insult but deception)
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:26 PM 發表
ok....haha
So, how did it feel of being deceived? There are a lot more adjectives that you can use if that would make u feel any better and less defensive ~~
My reply:
I am not concerned about semantics but facts -- and it seems that you don't care about facts but semantics -- if you don't care about facts, then you are not honest and rational
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:26 PM 發表
ok....haha
So, how did it feel of being deceived? There are a lot more adjectives that you can use if that would make u feel any better and less defensive ~~
My reply:
One more point, yes, I found that I was deceived -- by Christianity -- but I let go of my ego, despite I invested a good part of my life on it, I accepted evidences, logic and reasoning -- but how about you ? or the rest of Christendom ? Deceived for 2000 years or more and choose to be deceived again and again... it is not so bad to feel deceived, it is worse to fail to feel you are deceived -- you are pathetic
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:50 PM 發表
*long sigh*
talking about the use of language, i am learning from you actually
facts? what facts you want to talk about now~ About the fact that you do have your own church, your own religio ...
My reply:
我似乎沒有說我要求my own church -- 我要求的是基督教改變﹐ 你是否那樣愚蠢以為基督教教會可以不變﹖
Facts ? 要我educate 你﹖ 我不需要人educate﹐ 而是有一顆尋求真相知識的心
你沒有﹐ 就要人幫你﹐ 你真沒用
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
There are always people around who will use religion as a mean to control/manipulate people. Bible stated that long time ago.
My reply:
Why does it has to exempt Christianity, the Apostles and even Jesus ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
The point is, whether one can grow beyond that...just gain personal experience between you and the creator himself. If failed, there will be a lot more miss cat coming to the world. Angry, feelling being cheated, used, deceived, and harbored that feeling till the very last breath
My reply:
The personal experiences you referred to are tricks you minds played on you, just like people feel that Krishna, Harry Porter are reall
You are just trying to minimize things by saying that they are "feelings" and not facts -- why do you assume that Christianity is TRUE a priori without investigating yourself and judging that ALL church leavers are just "feeling cheated, used, deceived, and harbored that feeling" instead of YOU BEING DELUDED, SELF-DECEIVING and HARBOURED THAT FALSE HOPE UNTIL YOUR VERY LAST BREATH
So called experience with the Creator requires that the Creator to be TRUE, not just at personal experience level BUT also OBJECTIVELY TRUE, DID YOU INVESTIGATE IT ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
I passed your stage already. I was like you before. You were a mirror of my past self.
My reply:
Don't be so self-conceited and assuming you understand me or you were like me.
What knowledge do you have?
I think you are just the same as the Seventh Day Adventists who were distraught when their doom's day prophecy failed by "managed to passed that stage", or the Mormon's or Jehovah's Witness (who predicted the end of the World), who once felt deceived, cheated, used -- and then hung on to THEIR FAITH just as YOU HUNG ON TO YOUR FAITH
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
If it is how you want to use your life like this, fighting to overflow god, so be it.
If this course will lead you to have a happy, meaningful and a fullfilling life, you have my very blessing
No one knows what happen when we die. I hope at that moment you don't feel any sense of regret
My reply:
Then how do you KNOW what happen when we die ?
YOU ARE NOT MUCH MORE CERTAIN THAN ANY OTHER person
Moreover, your belief is NOT evidence-based but based on mindless faith, as well as assuming that the Bible is inspired, which is NOT -- until YOU read the books by Bart D. Erhman, otherwise you have no grounds, no support to make your claims or to say you are rational
I don't need anybody's blessing - save you arrogance to yourself when you want to rape a woman
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
There are always people around who will use religion as a mean to control/manipulate people. Bible stated that long time ago.
The point is, whether one can grow beyond that...just gain personal exp ...
My reply:
Just give you one last food for thought
If the Bible is divinely inspired, why is it that God did not ensure its transmission is not free from tampering, editing and preserve ALL the originals ?
Secondly, if the Bible is divinely inspired, why is that God allow so many contradictions to creep in ? To test your faith ? To want you to give up rational thinking so that even Christianity is repulsive, absurd and perverted you can accept it with FAITH?
Thirdly, given nearly 2000 years for God to work, don't you find that this God is incompetent to keep procrastinating the End times and still having so much more unconverted (not to mention the people to leave the faith) -- try this on a salesman, you will probably fire him/her. So why do you tolerate this for a supposedly "omnipotent" God ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
time:
親愛的，這一件事你們不可忘記：在主看來，一日如千年，千年如一日
主決不耽延他的應許，像有些人以為他是耽延的一樣；其實他是寬容你們，不願有一人滅亡，卻願人人都悔改。
但主的日子必要像賊一樣來到。在那日，天必轟然一聲地消失，所有元素都因烈火而融化；地和地上所有的，都要被燒毀。
彼得後書 3 (i.e. GOD SENSE OF TIME IS WAY DIFFERENT FROM HUMAN'S TIMELINE)
My reply
這樣同回答“人的意念不能夠理解神” - God works in mysterious ways 一樣﹐ 不是答案
如果按照你的標準﹐ God sense of morality is WAY DIFFERENT FROM HUMAN's standard, 於是神就可以屠殺大人﹑細路﹑BB﹐ 你都要稱讚神﹖
同樣地﹐ God's sense of "suffering" is way different from human's sense about suffering -- 我現在明白為何你們咁有能力﹑忍耐到全地球不同地方受極度苦難都可以笑得出﹑感謝神啦﹐ 然後當全地球無數人﹑幾千年受盡苦﹐ 耶穌響個十字架上受6-7小時苦你們可以呼天搶地慘過死老豆咁﹐ 我都開始明白啦
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
In conclusion, we don't have the intellectual level required to take God on this case why there are so few being saved. We don't have the actual data nor what will happen during the end times. But of course, you can choose to challenge god as always Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind.
My reply:
You are contradicting yourself -- if you don't have the intellectual level required to take God on this case why there are so few being saved or the actual data nor what will happen during the end times, how can you defend God as though you know so much about God ?
When you say: you can choose to challenge god as always Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind
Are you threatening me then?
OK, this argument works against Christians too: you can choose to defend and follow God, Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
numbers:
以賽亞指著以色列人大聲說：“以色列子孫的數目雖然多如海沙，得救的不過是剩下的餘數；因為主必在地上迅速而徹底地成就他的話。”
又如以賽亞早已說過的：“如果不是萬軍之主給我們存留後裔，我們早就像所多瑪和蛾摩拉一樣了。”
羅馬書 9 (GOD KNOWS THE FEW WILL BE SAVED, EVEN FOR THE JEWS)
耶穌經過各城各鄉，往耶路撒冷去，沿途教導人。
有一個人問他：“主啊，是不是只有很少的人得救呢？”他對眾人說：
“你們應當竭力進窄門！我告訴你們，將來許多人要進去，卻是不能。
等到家主起來關上門，你們站在門外叩門說：‘主啊，給我們開門！’他要回答你們：‘我不知道你們是從哪裡來的。’
路加福音 13 (MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS AND WORK ON YOUR SALVATION. OTHERWISE, YOU WILL BE LOST FOREVER AS WELL)
My reply:
Now you are cherry-picking from the Bible to find verses that support your ad-hoc argument in defense of the "numbers"
In fact, Paul says the opposite: 提摩太前書 2:4 他願意萬人得救、明白真道．
So are you saying that God only has a "wish" but he cannot make it happen ? Some omnipotent, benevolent God....
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:53 AM 發表
You live in a box.. and the box is called "Science"
And you live in a world without love since you cannot scientificly prove that Love exist..
Really sorry for you.. but I guess you don't need that since you have already classify yourself just another animal living on this planet what eat, sleep, and poo...
My reply:
You are living in a prison called FAITH and PREJUDICE.
You, like me, is also one of the species of animal, homo sapiens, a kind of animal living on this planet what eat, sleep, and poo -- animals love too, you are being ignorant and arrogant to even deny that animals like dogs, cats, birds, dolphins, elephants, apes have the capability of love -- zoologists observing mammals have literally documented so many cases of animal exhibiting romantic and maternal love that only idiots will say animals cannot love.
we are also a kind of advanced animal with capability to love like many others, but also a capability of cognitive power, creativity, imagination and abstract thinking, just that our brains are so evolved to this extent.
Being scientifically minded does not mean a person is not living in a world without love -- love exist because it occurs naturally around us, and love and can be proven to exist scientifically because love has to manifest in loving behavior, and this is observable, and moreover, during different types of loves, our brain and hormones are there for us to see.
Love is actually not so "unscientific" or "supernatural" as you imagine or being taught in church -- whether it is maternal love (parent love), romantic love or fellow love, it can be seen and observed in areas of our brain that lights up, and the flow of a hormone called oxytocin.
Science, as we now know, is beginning even to dash away the mystery of love and emotions
http://www.oxytocin.org/oxytoc/love-science.html
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
I have not yet found any contradcitions of what you mentioned from above. Having said that, i guess you can prepare a long list of flaws and errors recorded in the bible that we are wrong and you are right.
My reply:
I don't have to prepare that list, it is well known, even among Biblical scholars, please don't be such a lazy bone and requiring others to spoon feed you, find it out yourself -- KNOW YOUR BIBLE
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
Ok, you are treating the Bible like a phone book But, is the purpose of the bible should be treated like a phone book with 0 error? The purpose of the bible is to show life. I truly don't know how to explain it to you since you abandoned this life already.
My reply:
Explanations, as long as they are logical, reasonable, evidence based, do not need an a priori "acceptance of life" (versus your "you abandoned this life" judgment) in order it can be convincing and compelling.
你要我重新接納你所謂 “abandoned life" 才可以解釋比我﹐ 可能有以下原因
(1) You want me to give up reasoning, logic and rational thinking -- this hardly is a gesture of goodwill, only a gesture of enslavement and mind control
(2) You just run out of all reasoning, logic and rational explanations, and all you can is to provide circular logic, kettle logic or other absurd "ideas", and pretending them to be "explanations" -- but for me to accept these circular logic, kettle logic or other absurd "ideas", I have to be same as you -- you judge me only on the grounds whether I believe the same God as you, NOT by the merit of the individual arguments -- so please stop pretending you are treating me as equals or you are showing charity to me -- all you have been doing is patronizing
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
And what if God intentionally leave the errors there for us to critic? Would that be ridiculously possible? Why not? God knows we are no super computers.
My reply:
"what if" ? So all of your belief are just based on "what if " wild guesses which cannot be substantiated ?
So your faith includes conjecturing possibilities that are so far fetched ?
Or is it you are so desperate to cling on to this faith that any far fetched and absurd notions, as long as it shore up your faith, you will use it ?
This shows that you are really admitting your failure in facts, rational thinking and evidence -- WHY NOT JUST SAY YOU CANNOT ANSWER ME RATHER THAN MAKING A COMPLETE FOOL OF YOURSELF???
I think, I have given you way to much credit for being reasonable -- when it comes to your "precious faith", all of your rationality break down.
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
Thru out the history God is using ordinary people, common people just like u and me to accomplish his will. The choice is yours, you can call God nuts, or you can call God being graceful, for allowing us to transmit his holy words even we couldn't get everything correctly 100%. If you are a person of grace, you can see that. If you are a perfectionist and a hard critics for yourself, you will see numerous of flaws and contradictions.
Let me guess, so you are admitting God is NOT a perfectionist, NOT a hard critic -- alright, why doesn't God take YOUR ADVICE and stop being a PERFECTIONIST, and just ACCEPT us and SAVE us as we are, not requiring us to change, to believe in Him, to repent etc ?
Grace does not mean you allow gross errors or repulsive teachings, such as slaying of children, throwing babies onto rocks to crush them, looting and plundering people, drowning every being on Earth just because God himself is not a PERFECTIONIST so he cannot make us perfect etc.
Insisting the Bible should be error free is because of YOU -- you Christians claims to base your belief on your BIBLE, it is your moral compass, a guide on life -- but hey hey hey -- it has numerous of flaws and contradictions plain to ordinary people, common people just like you and me -- and you said that the Bible can at the same time be RELIABLE but also has numerous of flaws and contradictions -- you are like saying that a husband has fidelity to his wife even if he goes out to have sex with prostitutes once every other night or have a romantic relationship with another woman -- tell that with stop being a perfectionist and self-critic ?
原帖由 RS_Latch 於 2011-3-16 09:56 AM 發表
Why waste time? She just wanna find "God in the test tube", basically hoping to find the statement that "A and !A" is true. Then, she will keep asking other stupid questions one after another.
My reply:
RS_Latch﹐ 作大話使唔使作到咁﹖ 你話我 ”basically hoping to find the statement that "A and !A" is true.“﹐ 請問我在咩言論﹑討論過程裡面顯示過我這樣的企圖和想法﹖
你維護基督教﹐ 唔該都顧及你個人既誠信 -- 作大話進行這種人格謀殺﹐ 也實在卑鄙了點
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:47 AM 發表
If the Bible is divinely inspired, why is it that God did not ensure its transmission is not free from tampering, editing and preserve ALL the originals ?
(Blue text) Why do we need to preserve all the original to testify that the Bible is divinely inspiried? Jesus was there at that time, he performed plenty of miricles but people did not believe in Him. So it is not the matter of any originals or not. It is all about the people themselves.
My reply:
The words in blue up there is based on what is recorded in the Bible we have -- so if the Bible is being tampered/edited/added to etc, how can you be sure that those WERE THE ORIGINAL account and NOT A LATER FABRICATION ?
FAITH again ?
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:47 AM 發表
Secondly, if the Bible is divinely inspired, why is that God allow so many contradictions to creep in ? To test your faith ? To want you to give up rational thinking so that even Christianity is repulsive, absurd and perverted you can accept it with FAITH?
(Blue text) Are they really contradictions? Or just questions waiting to be answered? Were you there? Any evidence that they really contradict each others??
My reply:
To name just two contradictions
(1) What is the year at which Jesus born
Not later than 4 BCE -- in Matthew it is reported that Jesus was born during the times of King Herod
After 6 CE -- in Luke, it is reported that Jesus was born during the term of Quirinius as Governor of Judea and the census on Judea (census by Roman Empire could not have occurred BEFORE 6 CE as only by 6CE did the province of Judea became annexed to the Roman empire and thus taxation policy of Roman Empire applies, before that they were treated as foreign land which submitted to Roman Empire's force)
(2) Was Jesus crucified BEFORE he had the Passover Meal or AFTER
BEFORE -- Gospel of John
AFTER -- Matthew, Luke and Mark
(3) Who was the grandfather of Jesus ?
Jacob or Heli?
Don't try to pull the Mary side of the geneology thing here
(a) A patriarchal society NO geneology of women would be kept
(b) none of it says that Heli was Joseph's "father-in-law"
Of course, if you can accept that the Bible can be edited and tampered with, I think you should consider praying that somebody will fund a full re-edit of the Bible to edit out all of the contradictions....
Monday, March 14, 2011
趁災難傳教之聲仍然出現
之前紐西蘭基督城地震有耶徒話因為基督城容納同性戀和容許墮胎合法化而招致災禍﹐日本發生9級地震又有耶能話因為日本絕大多數不信耶穌故此招致災禍﹐又話係末日先兆。
成版耶能都不知道﹐紐西蘭﹑日本﹐2004年發生的南亞地震的印尼﹐全部屬於太平洋板塊邊緣所謂的 ring of fire﹐是地震頻繁和有強烈地震的地方來的﹐根本只是地球地殼變化週期﹐而非什麼末日。
可能上次南亞海嘯比人鬧爆﹐呢次都唔敢大大聲話地震是來自神對日本既懲罰 (私底下﹑在教會關起門有沒有講就唔知道了)。
想起這篇講基督徒的舊文﹐ 不得不貼出來 (來自張小鳴的 blog)
基督徒這個名字，在外界原來咁乞人憎。基督徒成為特權階級，某些社福機構和辦學團體是基督教和天主教附屬的，申請政府公帑，但只請基督徒。昨天有社工朋友表示， 有些想入社福界和教育界的朋友們，必須假扮基督徒，返教會，以增加搵工機會。亦有個案是因為不是基督徒，所以在社福界生存，不能同工同酬……工作能力和使命感真的與洗禮與否，是否信教有關係嗎？這是很嚴重的宗教歧視的行為。再加上普遍基督徒的反同志立場，亦令公眾十分反感。某大教會為維護教義傳統，把同性戀污名化，並介入政府，以政策控制 他人自己，令人齒冷。外界給予基督徒一個新的稱 號，稱作「耶能(2聲)」。昨天的金句係：「阿 sir你咁好人，點會係基督徒？」以前基督徒給人「好人」的形象，現在基督徒卻是令人憎厭..
成版耶能都不知道﹐紐西蘭﹑日本﹐2004年發生的南亞地震的印尼﹐全部屬於太平洋板塊邊緣所謂的 ring of fire﹐是地震頻繁和有強烈地震的地方來的﹐根本只是地球地殼變化週期﹐而非什麼末日。
可能上次南亞海嘯比人鬧爆﹐呢次都唔敢大大聲話地震是來自神對日本既懲罰 (私底下﹑在教會關起門有沒有講就唔知道了)。
想起這篇講基督徒的舊文﹐ 不得不貼出來 (來自張小鳴的 blog)
基督徒這個名字，在外界原來咁乞人憎。基督徒成為特權階級，某些社福機構和辦學團體是基督教和天主教附屬的，申請政府公帑，但只請基督徒。昨天有社工朋友表示， 有些想入社福界和教育界的朋友們，必須假扮基督徒，返教會，以增加搵工機會。亦有個案是因為不是基督徒，所以在社福界生存，不能同工同酬……工作能力和使命感真的與洗禮與否，是否信教有關係嗎？這是很嚴重的宗教歧視的行為。再加上普遍基督徒的反同志立場，亦令公眾十分反感。某大教會為維護教義傳統，把同性戀污名化，並介入政府，以政策控制 他人自己，令人齒冷。外界給予基督徒一個新的稱 號，稱作「耶能(2聲)」。昨天的金句係：「阿 sir你咁好人，點會係基督徒？」以前基督徒給人「好人」的形象，現在基督徒卻是令人憎厭..
Friday, March 11, 2011
基督教給人為自己的犬儒懦弱開脫
人好多理由信基督教. 近年香港社會壓力大, 市民在職場上飽受壓力,面對各種競爭,現實生活太過難受, 又不甘心死後沒有永生來作為現世煩惱/困苦生命的解脫, 所以期望有永生和天堂這種烏托邦
不少信徒骨子裡面是怕死, 同時也是自卑, 希望在教會裡面的群體平庸重拾現實中不會找到的自信
教會裡面個個都一樣膠, 於是沒有人會話自己膠, 偶然講了些比較言之有物的話, 就一定比人讚 : 好好既分享阿!
教會集體反智, 集體犬儒, 有"蒙恩, 來世盼望, 上帝用愚拙的道理拯救, 屬靈, 每個人有自己領受"開脫, 集體的感染下, 個人信徒如何愚昧, 說的如何荒謬, 有群體的掩護, 就不怕 --- "那麼多人同我一樣 (戆居), 即是我沒有問題, 或者不是問題啦 -- 參加童黨, 群毆打死人的童黨, 也是這種邏輯 (那麼多人有分打, 一定不是我一個有問題)
說穿了, 是這些人沒有勇氣成為獨立的人, 不能有獨立的人格, 不願意做A君, "我A君是這樣認為", 不, 他們一定要 answer to an authority -- "我A君是基督徒, 聖經係這樣講, 所以...." -- 他們沒有基督徒身分, 沒有聖經, 沒有神, 就沒有獨立完整的人格.
躲入教會, 其實是一種避世的心態, 來逃避現實的無力感, 無理的上司, 難以忍受的工作, 家庭裡面的不安，在教會可以退守在自己的小世界中，尋求虛假的寧靜，坐下在教會的"心靈按摩椅", 星期一又"重新得力", 阿阿, D 貧富懸殊好慘, 一係話: 我們傳福音比D官員, 為他們祈禱, 他們會改變, 我都經常祈禱的阿".....祈左禱就係做做本分了.....然後繼續平庸, 反智 (屬靈)
不少信徒骨子裡面是怕死, 同時也是自卑, 希望在教會裡面的群體平庸重拾現實中不會找到的自信
教會裡面個個都一樣膠, 於是沒有人會話自己膠, 偶然講了些比較言之有物的話, 就一定比人讚 : 好好既分享阿!
教會集體反智, 集體犬儒, 有"蒙恩, 來世盼望, 上帝用愚拙的道理拯救, 屬靈, 每個人有自己領受"開脫, 集體的感染下, 個人信徒如何愚昧, 說的如何荒謬, 有群體的掩護, 就不怕 --- "那麼多人同我一樣 (戆居), 即是我沒有問題, 或者不是問題啦 -- 參加童黨, 群毆打死人的童黨, 也是這種邏輯 (那麼多人有分打, 一定不是我一個有問題)
說穿了, 是這些人沒有勇氣成為獨立的人, 不能有獨立的人格, 不願意做A君, "我A君是這樣認為", 不, 他們一定要 answer to an authority -- "我A君是基督徒, 聖經係這樣講, 所以...." -- 他們沒有基督徒身分, 沒有聖經, 沒有神, 就沒有獨立完整的人格.
躲入教會, 其實是一種避世的心態, 來逃避現實的無力感, 無理的上司, 難以忍受的工作, 家庭裡面的不安，在教會可以退守在自己的小世界中，尋求虛假的寧靜，坐下在教會的"心靈按摩椅", 星期一又"重新得力", 阿阿, D 貧富懸殊好慘, 一係話: 我們傳福音比D官員, 為他們祈禱, 他們會改變, 我都經常祈禱的阿".....祈左禱就係做做本分了.....然後繼續平庸, 反智 (屬靈)
Wednesday, February 16, 2011
基督教信徒的品格﹑知識水平都下降了
今日連續在討論區用長文回覆了幾個信徒。一個有關《尼西亞信經》﹐個信徒看見人引用天主教的中文翻譯唔知頭唔知路就說「This is the Catholic “信經”」﹐比我片左一輪。另外一個﹐看見我說耶穌明知自己會復活﹐所以他犧牲並不真心﹐就學人拋「基督論」﹐說「耶穌雖然係神，但佢亦都係人，受人的限制。佢既然有人的限制，又點知死左之後一定會拎番條命。唔知的時候亦都肯付出，呢個就叫犧牲」﹐話我「一點基督論的認識都無」﹐我二話不說就列出馬太福音、馬可福音經文指出耶穌是知道他死後三日會復活的來反駮佢。然後有個信徒同我爭論信徒自殺問題﹐我指出自殺者有心理精神困擾﹐唔應該用信徒標準衡量批判﹐佢居然以專家自居﹐話「若人都把個人榮辱都放開了, 又怎會走上精神分裂的路上呢??」﹐又比我用醫學文獻反駁了。
一連串例子都令我驚覺信徒不論品格和知識水平都下降了。
這是我近幾年觀察網上信徒的整體感覺﹐ 但最近就有一個信徒也有同樣的觀察。佢帶查經﹐ 講”羅馬書“﹐ 一問參加的信徒大專生﹐有部份信主達到10年﹐原來不識得”羅馬書“是誰作的﹐保羅係咩人﹐他生平一二事跡都不懂得。
這帶查經的信徒問這些青年人原因﹐原來他們「團契聚會沒有查聖經，崇拜講道可能有提及過，但不記得了」「教會因出席率太低，早幾年已取消了主日學。」.....
聖經基礎本來都係基督徒的基本功﹐居然淪落如此﹐假如你再問他們“深”少少的東西﹐例如教會歷史﹐主要神學觀念﹐隨時呆望住你﹐唔知道你講咩。
自己基督教既都不懂得﹐當然就連基督教以外既都隨時係“也也烏”。
我想呢D係香港社會大氛圍造成﹐ 就是係今日80後﹑90後﹐ 知識﹑常識既貧乏﹑對世界視野狹窄﹐也同呢D信徒有得揮。同樣地﹐教會新一代厭惡知識﹑理性的程度也非常嚴重﹐我認識而佩服的一位基督徒學者﹐據我知道﹐基督教福音派裡面唔少人對佢恨之入骨﹐他可是根正苗紅的信徒﹐只是他的行為太似很多信徒心目中的“反基”﹐ 例如佢堅持
(1) 唔可以因人廢言
(2) 討論要有完整論述而且要充分理據﹑邏輯正確合理
(3) 討論時候要誠實
(4) 唔可以輸打贏要
(5) 要講道理﹑正面地討論
(6) 不打稻草人﹑重學術誠信
(7) 目的不是合理化手段的理由 - the ends do not justify the means
而今天基督教正是集合了 (1) 因人廢言 (2) 冇論述得大罵﹑冇理據﹑冇邏輯 (3) 討論唔誠實 (4) 輸打贏要 (5) 不講道路﹑不正面討論 (6) 打稻草人﹑放棄學術誠信 (7) 「只要能達到目的，手段再差一點也可以接受」等要素﹐而且還會認為是「各人對聖經的領受不同」「有人支持我，是聖靈引導的明證」來開脫﹐真係吹佢唔脹。
信徒對這位學者非常憎恨﹐而且因為佢多次批評基督教內奉為“正統”的明光社陣營﹑每次都切中要害﹑還出埋書批評明光社﹐而且揭露基督教福音派手段錯誤 (甚至卑劣)的真相﹐ 對好多信徒來說有不共戴天之恨。
但反觀我做信徒既年代﹐基督教想到開明﹐而且有學識人士好多﹐都堅持好似 (1) - (7) 咁做法﹐那年代信徒不但要傳福音﹐而且也十分重視個人行事為人﹐不能夠為了達到目的而不擇手段。
唔知道點解今日如果信徒堅持 (1) - (7) 就會比人 label﹐ 如果你膽敢指出基督教教會/機構手段有問題﹐ 就已經當你係叛教﹑假信徒﹐仲大件事過我離教。
最近﹐某香港討論區基版有人叫某信徒唔好“因人廢言”﹐ 個信徒直情話佢係魔鬼既爪牙....
就算唔講學識﹐我年代的時候﹐教會多數人都是忠厚正直老實的好人﹐好似呢度討論區信徒既行為佢地真係諗都冇諗過會做或者有信徒做﹐而我認識唔少牧師因為是甘心奉獻﹐收入微薄﹑生活簡朴﹐也會對窮人有同情心﹐表現出相對是無私既操守﹐我還保持同一個牧師既友誼﹐都係敬佩佢那份正直既為人。
就算係一般人認為十分反智盟塞既基要派教會，那些教會的教導﹐當年和今天都很保守 (道德﹑教義) 但仍然十分強調做事手段要正確﹐光明磊落﹐要無可指責﹐唔能夠 “海就是神仙，勝者為王、敗者為寇”等。
但近年香港教會既組織有變化﹐開始有錢有權勢﹐特別類似恩福堂﹑港福堂既有錢特大教會﹐牧師薪金真係好好既﹑而且所擁有既榮耀也非同小可﹐而且教會結構有另外的變化就是有些名牧坐擁超級大教會，內中有大量社會權貴 (官員)，有利教會用名人宣傳﹑也可以日後動員信徒參與一些民粹行動﹐ 所以越來越變本加厲地只顧招攬信徒入教
教會在財力的膨脹﹑在權勢上可以接觸官員﹑和當權人士越來越走在一起﹐自然引了一D心術不正既人加入教會和牧師行業﹐當然教會開始也攀附政府權勢﹐講天堂而不講對窮人既公義﹐好強調一次得救永遠得救﹐唔多講信徒操守 (最多講你係唔係同性戀﹑看不看色情物品﹐但你是否誠實﹑光明磊落就唔多理會啦)
教會比物質﹑權力﹑金錢迅速腐化﹐本來正直既牧師領袖和信徒 真係冇咩多少個留得低。
教會為了聚斂金錢﹑人數﹐也降低對信徒品格要求﹐以前因為比較在意普通信徒既見證﹑品格﹐有咩問題都會指出來﹐但現在咩狗屎垃圾都可以入教會﹐膠人可以成為組長導師﹑上樑傾斜下樑就自然咁﹐然後有咩信徒﹐自然有咩既神學生和牧師。
而這種惡性循環之下﹐ 大家在討論區所見信徒的言行越來越敗壞﹐係必然既結果。
以前教會領袖執事重他們品格﹑為人﹐今日教會﹐執事變晒 "Executive" ﹐能在教會上位的,執事(話事)的,傳道和教導者皆擅長厚黑學 ﹕ 厚者面皮厚,死唔認錯,視而不見,以權位無視別人);黑者凡事用大事他小,或者把不單純的動機/行為進行”溝淡”,將不同意見抹黑或者消音 -- 有這些領袖﹐ 大家望下封閉既基督教版既耶徒﹐ 就知道他們跟隨既不是”基督“。
真係或者我們唔需要太大力反基督教﹐ 基督教正在自己拆毀基礎了。
一連串例子都令我驚覺信徒不論品格和知識水平都下降了。
這是我近幾年觀察網上信徒的整體感覺﹐ 但最近就有一個信徒也有同樣的觀察。佢帶查經﹐ 講”羅馬書“﹐ 一問參加的信徒大專生﹐有部份信主達到10年﹐原來不識得”羅馬書“是誰作的﹐保羅係咩人﹐他生平一二事跡都不懂得。
這帶查經的信徒問這些青年人原因﹐原來他們「團契聚會沒有查聖經，崇拜講道可能有提及過，但不記得了」「教會因出席率太低，早幾年已取消了主日學。」.....
聖經基礎本來都係基督徒的基本功﹐居然淪落如此﹐假如你再問他們“深”少少的東西﹐例如教會歷史﹐主要神學觀念﹐隨時呆望住你﹐唔知道你講咩。
自己基督教既都不懂得﹐當然就連基督教以外既都隨時係“也也烏”。
我想呢D係香港社會大氛圍造成﹐ 就是係今日80後﹑90後﹐ 知識﹑常識既貧乏﹑對世界視野狹窄﹐也同呢D信徒有得揮。同樣地﹐教會新一代厭惡知識﹑理性的程度也非常嚴重﹐我認識而佩服的一位基督徒學者﹐據我知道﹐基督教福音派裡面唔少人對佢恨之入骨﹐他可是根正苗紅的信徒﹐只是他的行為太似很多信徒心目中的“反基”﹐ 例如佢堅持
(1) 唔可以因人廢言
(2) 討論要有完整論述而且要充分理據﹑邏輯正確合理
(3) 討論時候要誠實
(4) 唔可以輸打贏要
(5) 要講道理﹑正面地討論
(6) 不打稻草人﹑重學術誠信
(7) 目的不是合理化手段的理由 - the ends do not justify the means
而今天基督教正是集合了 (1) 因人廢言 (2) 冇論述得大罵﹑冇理據﹑冇邏輯 (3) 討論唔誠實 (4) 輸打贏要 (5) 不講道路﹑不正面討論 (6) 打稻草人﹑放棄學術誠信 (7) 「只要能達到目的，手段再差一點也可以接受」等要素﹐而且還會認為是「各人對聖經的領受不同」「有人支持我，是聖靈引導的明證」來開脫﹐真係吹佢唔脹。
信徒對這位學者非常憎恨﹐而且因為佢多次批評基督教內奉為“正統”的明光社陣營﹑每次都切中要害﹑還出埋書批評明光社﹐而且揭露基督教福音派手段錯誤 (甚至卑劣)的真相﹐ 對好多信徒來說有不共戴天之恨。
但反觀我做信徒既年代﹐基督教想到開明﹐而且有學識人士好多﹐都堅持好似 (1) - (7) 咁做法﹐那年代信徒不但要傳福音﹐而且也十分重視個人行事為人﹐不能夠為了達到目的而不擇手段。
唔知道點解今日如果信徒堅持 (1) - (7) 就會比人 label﹐ 如果你膽敢指出基督教教會/機構手段有問題﹐ 就已經當你係叛教﹑假信徒﹐仲大件事過我離教。
最近﹐某香港討論區基版有人叫某信徒唔好“因人廢言”﹐ 個信徒直情話佢係魔鬼既爪牙....
就算唔講學識﹐我年代的時候﹐教會多數人都是忠厚正直老實的好人﹐好似呢度討論區信徒既行為佢地真係諗都冇諗過會做或者有信徒做﹐而我認識唔少牧師因為是甘心奉獻﹐收入微薄﹑生活簡朴﹐也會對窮人有同情心﹐表現出相對是無私既操守﹐我還保持同一個牧師既友誼﹐都係敬佩佢那份正直既為人。
就算係一般人認為十分反智盟塞既基要派教會，那些教會的教導﹐當年和今天都很保守 (道德﹑教義) 但仍然十分強調做事手段要正確﹐光明磊落﹐要無可指責﹐唔能夠 “海就是神仙，勝者為王、敗者為寇”等。
但近年香港教會既組織有變化﹐開始有錢有權勢﹐特別類似恩福堂﹑港福堂既有錢特大教會﹐牧師薪金真係好好既﹑而且所擁有既榮耀也非同小可﹐而且教會結構有另外的變化就是有些名牧坐擁超級大教會，內中有大量社會權貴 (官員)，有利教會用名人宣傳﹑也可以日後動員信徒參與一些民粹行動﹐ 所以越來越變本加厲地只顧招攬信徒入教
教會在財力的膨脹﹑在權勢上可以接觸官員﹑和當權人士越來越走在一起﹐自然引了一D心術不正既人加入教會和牧師行業﹐當然教會開始也攀附政府權勢﹐講天堂而不講對窮人既公義﹐好強調一次得救永遠得救﹐唔多講信徒操守 (最多講你係唔係同性戀﹑看不看色情物品﹐但你是否誠實﹑光明磊落就唔多理會啦)
教會比物質﹑權力﹑金錢迅速腐化﹐本來正直既牧師領袖和信徒 真係冇咩多少個留得低。
教會為了聚斂金錢﹑人數﹐也降低對信徒品格要求﹐以前因為比較在意普通信徒既見證﹑品格﹐有咩問題都會指出來﹐但現在咩狗屎垃圾都可以入教會﹐膠人可以成為組長導師﹑上樑傾斜下樑就自然咁﹐然後有咩信徒﹐自然有咩既神學生和牧師。
而這種惡性循環之下﹐ 大家在討論區所見信徒的言行越來越敗壞﹐係必然既結果。
以前教會領袖執事重他們品格﹑為人﹐今日教會﹐執事變晒 "Executive" ﹐能在教會上位的,執事(話事)的,傳道和教導者皆擅長厚黑學 ﹕ 厚者面皮厚,死唔認錯,視而不見,以權位無視別人);黑者凡事用大事他小,或者把不單純的動機/行為進行”溝淡”,將不同意見抹黑或者消音 -- 有這些領袖﹐ 大家望下封閉既基督教版既耶徒﹐ 就知道他們跟隨既不是”基督“。
真係或者我們唔需要太大力反基督教﹐ 基督教正在自己拆毀基礎了。
Monday, February 14, 2011
高分低能一族﹐ 難道全部是青年人的錯﹖
報紙報導一個中文大學碩士生求職失敗200次﹐多數人都聚焦到這學生本人的不濟之上。他個人缺乏動力﹑熱情確實是需要檢討﹐但你看見他那 GPA 3.6的成績﹐也應該問﹐是否教育制度﹑社會也出現了問題呢﹖
香港近十多年來﹐教育重視的就是考試成績﹑名次﹐你在課堂是否熱情、投入、有沒有性格和溝通技巧﹐對不起﹐因為唔計分﹐以香港人典型的功利學習態度﹐別說學生不會放任何 effort落去﹐家長也會認為這些不重要﹐或者「遲D學都得」。
待人接物﹑溝通和社交技巧來自生活經驗﹐只有多做﹑多經歷才會有這樣的閱歷。
我小時候沒有得上網﹐週末假期就是和同學一起出去玩﹑聊天﹐在成長過程累積社交經驗。以前學生也有機會做暑期工或者去機構做義工﹐大學要做兼職幫補學費﹐這些都是學習待人接物的機會﹐但80後的世代﹐越來越少人做暑期工或者去機構做義工 (因為唔計分﹖)。新聞中這個學生可以有 GPA 3.6﹐大概是因為他在大學時候從來不做兼職﹑不參加團體活動﹐只顧讀書﹐才落得社交能力如此差。當然最大問題是﹐你一日不出來工作﹐只是看文件上的東西(成績﹑證書)﹐沒有人會發現﹑會認為這是問題。
我自己認識一些家長﹐他們孩子的生活就是上學﹑回家做功課﹑溫書﹑考試。週末一切的活動已經pre-set﹐基本又是學習﹐完全是沒有任何待人接物﹑溝通和社交機會。「港孩」在這些密集安排下﹐失去所有熱情﹑投入感和性格﹐不是奇特現象﹐而是必然出現的後果。有些家長錯誤以為社交﹑溝通等可以「大個點先理」﹐完全是大錯特錯。
待人接物﹑溝通和社交機會是不可能在課堂的場景學習的﹐因為那場景太「受控」﹑有「目標計劃範圍」﹑「保護」﹐人工化而且不真實﹐裡面的「學習」和平日上課一樣﹐就是復述老師講的﹑重複老師教的指定動作﹐而不是個人用自己的反應﹑判斷過程和從錯誤學習﹐而且是由小訓練﹐家長慢慢放手﹑給子女自己闖﹑自己處理才可以鍛煉出來﹐沒有 shortcut。真正的待人接物﹑溝通和社交經驗往往就是在不受控﹑隨機﹑不能預計的生活裡面碰壁才會學得最多。
高考自從需要考5科後﹐應付高考的壓力已經剝奪了青少年所有時間。應付高考的兩年所有娛樂﹑社交都要犧牲﹐而父母認為那是理所當然的。
從中學到大學父母看見子女埋頭苦讀﹐只會讚子女勤奮讀書﹐不知道困他們在家﹑缺乏社交的惡果。中國人父母保守﹑重視讀書﹐以為「勤有功﹑戲無益」﹐也傾向抓緊子女﹐不希望他們有青少年的反叛﹑有自己的世界和社交圈子﹐子女在家時間多﹑不出去社交其實是很多父母喜歡的﹐或者是覺得「安全」的。這其實埋伏了一些他們沒有考慮過的問題。
就算不需要考試﹐父母看見子女深閨不出﹐在房間上網也從不覺得是問題 - 他們認為這好過出去群到壞朋友嘛﹐於是在成長的關鍵時間﹐青春發育期﹑開始脫離依賴父母的孩童心態轉化﹑發展為獨立的成人人格這個關鍵階段期間﹐子女缺乏經歷少年成長為大人的各樣社交體會﹑磨煉溝通的機會﹐在沒有父母約束監督下和人自由交往其實是他們鍛煉社交技巧的機會﹐但他們上網﹑父母又不覺是問題﹐在這個向獨立人格發展的階段和現實脫節﹐父母只看到﹐也只重視紙張上面的成績﹑文憑上面的學位﹐而不知道他們子女呆在家﹑上網不是「乖仔乖女」﹐不是「生性」﹐而是妨礙了他們累積社交溝通經驗的機會﹐當子女大定左﹐要扭轉他們社交問題是困難很多的。
中文大學碩士生求職失敗200次不是特例﹐他只是較極端的例子。他可能不明白過去一直令他「成功」的做法為何忽然間唔 work﹐我相信他自懂事﹑讀書成績一直好以來﹐人人只讚美他讀書成績優異﹐他也相信自己的方法是萬試萬靈﹐而沒有想過原來一紙文憑和成績﹑一個他引以為榮的GPA所付出的代價是會如此的。
問題就是﹐為何他身旁的老師﹑家長都發覺不了這問題﹐還是因為社會的洪流已經令大人們自顧不暇﹐看不到下一代所處的社會。
香港近十多年來﹐教育重視的就是考試成績﹑名次﹐你在課堂是否熱情、投入、有沒有性格和溝通技巧﹐對不起﹐因為唔計分﹐以香港人典型的功利學習態度﹐別說學生不會放任何 effort落去﹐家長也會認為這些不重要﹐或者「遲D學都得」。
待人接物﹑溝通和社交技巧來自生活經驗﹐只有多做﹑多經歷才會有這樣的閱歷。
我小時候沒有得上網﹐週末假期就是和同學一起出去玩﹑聊天﹐在成長過程累積社交經驗。以前學生也有機會做暑期工或者去機構做義工﹐大學要做兼職幫補學費﹐這些都是學習待人接物的機會﹐但80後的世代﹐越來越少人做暑期工或者去機構做義工 (因為唔計分﹖)。新聞中這個學生可以有 GPA 3.6﹐大概是因為他在大學時候從來不做兼職﹑不參加團體活動﹐只顧讀書﹐才落得社交能力如此差。當然最大問題是﹐你一日不出來工作﹐只是看文件上的東西(成績﹑證書)﹐沒有人會發現﹑會認為這是問題。
我自己認識一些家長﹐他們孩子的生活就是上學﹑回家做功課﹑溫書﹑考試。週末一切的活動已經pre-set﹐基本又是學習﹐完全是沒有任何待人接物﹑溝通和社交機會。「港孩」在這些密集安排下﹐失去所有熱情﹑投入感和性格﹐不是奇特現象﹐而是必然出現的後果。有些家長錯誤以為社交﹑溝通等可以「大個點先理」﹐完全是大錯特錯。
待人接物﹑溝通和社交機會是不可能在課堂的場景學習的﹐因為那場景太「受控」﹑有「目標計劃範圍」﹑「保護」﹐人工化而且不真實﹐裡面的「學習」和平日上課一樣﹐就是復述老師講的﹑重複老師教的指定動作﹐而不是個人用自己的反應﹑判斷過程和從錯誤學習﹐而且是由小訓練﹐家長慢慢放手﹑給子女自己闖﹑自己處理才可以鍛煉出來﹐沒有 shortcut。真正的待人接物﹑溝通和社交經驗往往就是在不受控﹑隨機﹑不能預計的生活裡面碰壁才會學得最多。
高考自從需要考5科後﹐應付高考的壓力已經剝奪了青少年所有時間。應付高考的兩年所有娛樂﹑社交都要犧牲﹐而父母認為那是理所當然的。
從中學到大學父母看見子女埋頭苦讀﹐只會讚子女勤奮讀書﹐不知道困他們在家﹑缺乏社交的惡果。中國人父母保守﹑重視讀書﹐以為「勤有功﹑戲無益」﹐也傾向抓緊子女﹐不希望他們有青少年的反叛﹑有自己的世界和社交圈子﹐子女在家時間多﹑不出去社交其實是很多父母喜歡的﹐或者是覺得「安全」的。這其實埋伏了一些他們沒有考慮過的問題。
就算不需要考試﹐父母看見子女深閨不出﹐在房間上網也從不覺得是問題 - 他們認為這好過出去群到壞朋友嘛﹐於是在成長的關鍵時間﹐青春發育期﹑開始脫離依賴父母的孩童心態轉化﹑發展為獨立的成人人格這個關鍵階段期間﹐子女缺乏經歷少年成長為大人的各樣社交體會﹑磨煉溝通的機會﹐在沒有父母約束監督下和人自由交往其實是他們鍛煉社交技巧的機會﹐但他們上網﹑父母又不覺是問題﹐在這個向獨立人格發展的階段和現實脫節﹐父母只看到﹐也只重視紙張上面的成績﹑文憑上面的學位﹐而不知道他們子女呆在家﹑上網不是「乖仔乖女」﹐不是「生性」﹐而是妨礙了他們累積社交溝通經驗的機會﹐當子女大定左﹐要扭轉他們社交問題是困難很多的。
中文大學碩士生求職失敗200次不是特例﹐他只是較極端的例子。他可能不明白過去一直令他「成功」的做法為何忽然間唔 work﹐我相信他自懂事﹑讀書成績一直好以來﹐人人只讚美他讀書成績優異﹐他也相信自己的方法是萬試萬靈﹐而沒有想過原來一紙文憑和成績﹑一個他引以為榮的GPA所付出的代價是會如此的。
問題就是﹐為何他身旁的老師﹑家長都發覺不了這問題﹐還是因為社會的洪流已經令大人們自顧不暇﹐看不到下一代所處的社會。
Monday, January 24, 2011
基督教的節期﹑習俗的異教根源
如果有心機慢慢看﹐其實都會看到﹐基督教羅馬帝國把全帝國不同民族的原信仰而用基督教去吸收他們的習俗﹑民間信仰﹐聖誕節是太陽神節﹐是慶祝地球在冬至的三天最後一天﹐北半球經歷全年最短的白晝﹐和復活節來自希臘穀神﹑春日節的根源。因此12月25日和春分節﹐是我們的權利﹐也不是耶徒的權利。
Saturday, January 22, 2011
報紙都被河蟹了
菜園村被暴力拆遷發生多時﹐ 報紙報導是近乎零。沒有人關心﹐沒有人理會﹐假設了他們都是一群貪得無厭﹑嫌賠償不夠﹑攪事的人。對這樣的傳媒我已經沒有任何期望﹐公義在他們心目中是有限制﹑範圍的﹐有些人的公義 is not on their menu。
現在報導好零星﹐也不在頭版﹐好似朱凱迪被流氓惡棍一樣的保安毆打﹐也居然遲那麼久報導。
對香港傳媒已經死心﹐ 但是否能夠有些東西造﹐最少去令這些傳媒感到壓力呢﹖
此片段有朱凱迪被流氓惡棍一樣的保安毆打的過程﹐他是被一個孔武有力的保安抱起然後拋在地上的。
現在報導好零星﹐也不在頭版﹐好似朱凱迪被流氓惡棍一樣的保安毆打﹐也居然遲那麼久報導。
對香港傳媒已經死心﹐ 但是否能夠有些東西造﹐最少去令這些傳媒感到壓力呢﹖
此片段有朱凱迪被流氓惡棍一樣的保安毆打的過程﹐他是被一個孔武有力的保安抱起然後拋在地上的。
Monday, December 27, 2010
Bart D. Erhman 的 Misquoting Jesus 出了中文版
Bart D. Erhman 的 Misquoting Jesus 數年前出版﹐我今年一口氣看了Misquoting Jesus和Jesus Interrupted。4年後台灣出版了中文翻譯﹐稱為《製造耶穌》。
好多今日你在教會聖經新約部份找到的經文﹐在最古老的抄本是沒有的﹕
有些非常著名的經節，原本並不存在！
〈約翰壹書〉5: 7在天上作證的有三：就是父、道及聖靈，這三個都歸於一。 (這段中文和合本是沒有的)
〈約翰福音〉8: 7 你們中間誰是沒有罪的，誰就可以先拿石頭打她。
〈約翰福音〉8: 11 我也不定你的罪。去吧，從此不要再犯罪了！
(整段行淫中女子被抓帶到耶穌面前的﹐據說也是後來加入的)
〈路加福音〉22: 44 耶穌極其傷痛，禱告更加懇切，汗珠如大血點滴在地上。
〈路加福音〉22: 20 飯後也照樣拿起杯來，說：「這杯是用我血所立的新約，是為你們流出來的。」
〈馬可福音〉16: 17 信的人必有神蹟隨著他們，就是奉我的名趕鬼；說新方言；
〈馬可福音〉16: 18 手能拿蛇；若喝了什麼毒物，也必不受害；手按病人，病人就必好了。
(馬可福音16﹕9-20古卷都沒有)
〈約翰福音〉5: 4 因為有天使按時下池子攪動那水，水動之後，誰先下去，無論害什麼病就痊癒了。
〈路加福音〉24: 12 彼得起來，跑到墳墓前，低頭往裡看，見細麻布獨在一處，就回去了，心裡希奇所成的事。
〈路加福音〉24: 51 正祝福的時候，他就離開他們，被帶到天上去了。
他的姐妹作 Jesus Interrupted 更加說出﹐ 保羅書信只有羅馬書﹑歌林多前書﹑加拉太書﹑歌羅西書﹑帖撒邏尼迦前書才真的出自保羅手筆﹐其他都是後來的基督徒杜撰的﹐四福音沒有一個作者是見過耶穌﹑或者與耶穌同年代﹑在巴勒斯坦生活過的。
期待中文版出了後﹐ 更多華人認識聖經的錯謬﹐而不要再輕信基督教了。
中文版介紹﹕ http://www.books.com.tw/exep/prod/booksfile.php?item=0010481776
Thursday, December 23, 2010
如果講自由、人權與敬老﹐ 當然是自由、人權先﹐ 敬老﹖ 混帳﹗
去內地不論工作旅行﹐都十分不便﹐例如我無法上自己的博客﹐Facebook、Twitter、YouTube被屏蔽﹐Google被過濾﹐都是多虧中共寧叫豆腐渣壓死孩童都要投資建立一個監控人民接受資訊的「防火長城」。
在網上看到﹐原來「防火長城」研發是北京郵電大學校長方濱興主導的。他今年已經年過五旬。
按道理年輕人對年過五旬者都要恭敬﹐但他開微博消息一出﹐迅速被網民知道﹐然後憤怒而渴望自由的國內網民圍攻他﹐短時間上萬條留言﹐都是諷刺、責罵。
比著封建社會﹐這樣不敬老行為大概招來老一輩責備﹐但現代社會﹐敬老意思是關懷弱勢和有需要的老人﹐不要欺負他﹐但在有嚴重過錯也是會指責的﹐方濱興的例子﹐是因為他建立了壓抑人民自由的系統﹐甘願為當權者做奴才﹐真是完全沒有可敬之處。
最後他落荒而逃﹐關閉了微博戶口。
在網上看到﹐原來「防火長城」研發是北京郵電大學校長方濱興主導的。他今年已經年過五旬。
按道理年輕人對年過五旬者都要恭敬﹐但他開微博消息一出﹐迅速被網民知道﹐然後憤怒而渴望自由的國內網民圍攻他﹐短時間上萬條留言﹐都是諷刺、責罵。
比著封建社會﹐這樣不敬老行為大概招來老一輩責備﹐但現代社會﹐敬老意思是關懷弱勢和有需要的老人﹐不要欺負他﹐但在有嚴重過錯也是會指責的﹐方濱興的例子﹐是因為他建立了壓抑人民自由的系統﹐甘願為當權者做奴才﹐真是完全沒有可敬之處。
最後他落荒而逃﹐關閉了微博戶口。
Sunday, November 21, 2010
Zeitgeist Part I: The Greatest Story Ever Told
「時代精神」第一部份﹐ 追溯基督信仰的本來異教根源。
看這個照片﹐大部份耶徒會以為這是基督耶穌釘十字架。那不是耶穌基督﹐而是公元前500年希臘人所信的酒神 Dionysus的一幅象。
Dionysys的名號包括﹕ King of Kings (萬王之王)﹐ 阿拉法與俄梅伽 (Alpha and Omega)﹐曾經把水變酒﹐然後是處女所生﹐ 死後復活。
這片的震撼在於告訴大家﹐西方的建制﹐ 從政府﹑宗教﹐ 都是當權者泡制來欺騙人民的。Horos﹐ Dionysus終極版本﹐就是基督。
12月24日﹐按照電影的星象﹐ 就可以看看有沒有說錯了。
Saturday, November 20, 2010
基督教怎樣令信徒可以“勇悍護教”﹖
“勇悍護教”者﹐ 只能說“勇悍”﹐ 是有勇無謀﹑有悍而無道理。
這怎麼說呢﹖
正常人﹑理性的﹐ 如果討論/辯論一個題目或者範疇的知識﹐ 比如A知識﹐ 正常人﹑理性的某甲﹐ 就算最初以為自己知道得足夠可以在這題目發言﹑辯論﹐ 如果有人﹐ 比方乙在討論上明顯地表現出他比某甲清楚題目或者範疇的A知識 (例如有相關資格﹑讀書時候讀過成績好﹑能引用大批那方面權威文獻)﹐ 理性﹑正常的某甲﹐ 會表示受教﹐ 就是不﹐ 也會自動收口。
可是﹐ 如果某甲是基督徒﹐ 就算他是A知識的徹底門外漢﹑完全一竅不通﹐ 在他來講﹐ 他不需要講道理的﹐
推動他們的﹐ 不是理性﹐ 而他們目標也不是知識追求﹐ 而是死命維護信仰 -- 這在基督教信仰系統價值﹐ 是最崇高的“德行” -- 為了維護信仰不惜一切 (包括說謊﹑作假﹑否認任何確鑿證據等) -- 只要達到基督教信仰系統價值﹐ 是最崇高的“德行”﹐ 得到了這信仰的 approval seal﹐ 比任何都重要。
而且﹐ 基督教令他們相信﹐ 自己信仰比佢有屬靈既光照﹑聖靈的引導﹐ 於是這種情況﹑信仰影響下﹐ 某甲基督徒﹐ 就算他對題目一竅不通﹐ 他只要不斷提出大量質素參差回貼﹑不論裡面有沒有論據﹑是否有知識支持 (多數時候沒有)，只求有一、兩點擊中對方，或者對方大意弄錯﹐ 其他的，某甲講錯100次﹑1000次﹐ 也沒所謂，只要待幾天﹑數月，以為所有人都忘記了，那自己就視而不見地講別的去。然後最重要﹐ 就是絕對不道歉﹑不收回錯誤言論﹑把擊中對手的那一兩點放大﹑就算是千年前對方已經收回﹑道歉的﹐隔段時間就拿出來講﹐ 尤其是他們耶徒自己開始詞窮﹐ 這些記下的就可以用來轉移視線。
如果在一個論點節節失利﹐ 他們好常用手法就是捏造人家沒有講的東西 (話中國復國)﹑改變字眼題目﹐ 務求一方面逃避令他們尷尬﹑宭迫的辯論﹐ 又會把把一些很其實是真，說成只是一個可能性﹑理論等，再說成可能為假。或倒過來，把一些可能為假的命題，說成也是一個可能性，然後蒙混過關地再說成為真﹑可能真。
當然﹐ 基督教和理性最大的分別是﹐ 前者有一套要愛護﹑甚至捨己﹑捨人 (傷害人)﹑付出代價(包括人格誠信﹑學術誠信)﹑不理會人家“逼迫”(其實只是指出他們錯處)﹐ 都要維護得立場。但理性不是如此﹐ 理性要求認願意質疑自己一向愛護的立場，若發現不合理，就要棄如敝履﹐ 理性者不會把這些立場當作個人榮辱﹑尊嚴的一部份﹐ 放棄了﹑學了新的﹐ 會高興﹐ 因為在知識追求走了一步。
可是基督教令相信的人認為他們的信仰﹐ 是他們個人榮辱﹑尊嚴的一部份﹐ 而且放棄還是大罪 -- 因為你將一個 (沒有經你同意) 曾為你的罪慘死既人出賣 -- 至于這個所謂曾為你的罪慘死既人是否存在﹐ 佢咁做合理唔合理﹐ 他們可不會過問。
事例就是我不斷在網上遇到反對進化論的耶徒。討論多一兩轉﹐ 你其實都看得出他們科學知識十分貧乏﹐ 只能夠引用耶教那些攻擊進化論的（垃圾）文宣﹐ 沒有一個真的知道科學﹑進化論﹑物理是什麼﹐ 也毫無概念﹐ 但為了攻擊進化論﹑保護基督教﹐ 糾纏很久﹐ 自己就死不承認自己不懂得﹑無知。就算你比好多有關文獻﹑論證他們看﹐ 他們會認為﹐ 為了維護信仰而漠視﹑不顧事實﹑證據﹑學術﹐ 都是好的。
這怎麼說呢﹖
正常人﹑理性的﹐ 如果討論/辯論一個題目或者範疇的知識﹐ 比如A知識﹐ 正常人﹑理性的某甲﹐ 就算最初以為自己知道得足夠可以在這題目發言﹑辯論﹐ 如果有人﹐ 比方乙在討論上明顯地表現出他比某甲清楚題目或者範疇的A知識 (例如有相關資格﹑讀書時候讀過成績好﹑能引用大批那方面權威文獻)﹐ 理性﹑正常的某甲﹐ 會表示受教﹐ 就是不﹐ 也會自動收口。
可是﹐ 如果某甲是基督徒﹐ 就算他是A知識的徹底門外漢﹑完全一竅不通﹐ 在他來講﹐ 他不需要講道理的﹐
推動他們的﹐ 不是理性﹐ 而他們目標也不是知識追求﹐ 而是死命維護信仰 -- 這在基督教信仰系統價值﹐ 是最崇高的“德行” -- 為了維護信仰不惜一切 (包括說謊﹑作假﹑否認任何確鑿證據等) -- 只要達到基督教信仰系統價值﹐ 是最崇高的“德行”﹐ 得到了這信仰的 approval seal﹐ 比任何都重要。
而且﹐ 基督教令他們相信﹐ 自己信仰比佢有屬靈既光照﹑聖靈的引導﹐ 於是這種情況﹑信仰影響下﹐ 某甲基督徒﹐ 就算他對題目一竅不通﹐ 他只要不斷提出大量質素參差回貼﹑不論裡面有沒有論據﹑是否有知識支持 (多數時候沒有)，只求有一、兩點擊中對方，或者對方大意弄錯﹐ 其他的，某甲講錯100次﹑1000次﹐ 也沒所謂，只要待幾天﹑數月，以為所有人都忘記了，那自己就視而不見地講別的去。然後最重要﹐ 就是絕對不道歉﹑不收回錯誤言論﹑把擊中對手的那一兩點放大﹑就算是千年前對方已經收回﹑道歉的﹐隔段時間就拿出來講﹐ 尤其是他們耶徒自己開始詞窮﹐ 這些記下的就可以用來轉移視線。
如果在一個論點節節失利﹐ 他們好常用手法就是捏造人家沒有講的東西 (話中國復國)﹑改變字眼題目﹐ 務求一方面逃避令他們尷尬﹑宭迫的辯論﹐ 又會把把一些很其實是真，說成只是一個可能性﹑理論等，再說成可能為假。或倒過來，把一些可能為假的命題，說成也是一個可能性，然後蒙混過關地再說成為真﹑可能真。
當然﹐ 基督教和理性最大的分別是﹐ 前者有一套要愛護﹑甚至捨己﹑捨人 (傷害人)﹑付出代價(包括人格誠信﹑學術誠信)﹑不理會人家“逼迫”(其實只是指出他們錯處)﹐ 都要維護得立場。但理性不是如此﹐ 理性要求認願意質疑自己一向愛護的立場，若發現不合理，就要棄如敝履﹐ 理性者不會把這些立場當作個人榮辱﹑尊嚴的一部份﹐ 放棄了﹑學了新的﹐ 會高興﹐ 因為在知識追求走了一步。
可是基督教令相信的人認為他們的信仰﹐ 是他們個人榮辱﹑尊嚴的一部份﹐ 而且放棄還是大罪 -- 因為你將一個 (沒有經你同意) 曾為你的罪慘死既人出賣 -- 至于這個所謂曾為你的罪慘死既人是否存在﹐ 佢咁做合理唔合理﹐ 他們可不會過問。
事例就是我不斷在網上遇到反對進化論的耶徒。討論多一兩轉﹐ 你其實都看得出他們科學知識十分貧乏﹐ 只能夠引用耶教那些攻擊進化論的（垃圾）文宣﹐ 沒有一個真的知道科學﹑進化論﹑物理是什麼﹐ 也毫無概念﹐ 但為了攻擊進化論﹑保護基督教﹐ 糾纏很久﹐ 自己就死不承認自己不懂得﹑無知。就算你比好多有關文獻﹑論證他們看﹐ 他們會認為﹐ 為了維護信仰而漠視﹑不顧事實﹑證據﹑學術﹐ 都是好的。
Thursday, November 18, 2010
又一段非常優雅﹑深遽的智者之言 - Carl Sagan
航行者一號 (Voyager I) 1990年完成它探測遠離太陽行星﹑飛出太陽系前﹐ 著名天文物理學家﹑兼著名科普作家 Carl Sagan 請求美國太空總署特別拍攝一幅照片。這歷史性照片名字﹐ 成為 "The Pale Blue Dot" -- 美國太空總署遙控航行者一號 (Voyager I)太空船的攝影機﹑ 拍攝了一幅照片 -- 它臨離開太陽系回望自己的故鄉地球。
航行者一號 (Voyager I) 1977年升空﹐ 飛行13年﹐ 離開太陽系永不回來。
這影片就是後來以同一相片命名的有聲書的影像。
片裡面 Carl Sagan 說﹐ 人類自古以來就以為自己是萬物之靈﹐宇宙中心﹐ 宇宙是為我們創造的﹐ 其實都是人類的投射﹐ Carl Sagan 稱這是 human self-centered conceit -- 這些教人類自我膨脹﹑自我感覺良好的想法是跨文化的﹐ 因為我們都喜歡自我感覺良好﹐ 而反對這信念的人自古以來﹐ 特別在西方﹐ 被迫害。今天我們比祖先更加了解大自然和宇宙。我們不需要害怕不知道宇宙那裡來或者自己出生是沒有一個來自神的旨意﹐ 這些害怕是不理性的﹐ 是出於我們原始的心理需要。
Wednesday, November 10, 2010
Carl Sagan -- 宇宙不是為人類創造的
我高中時候﹐ 明珠台播映 Cosmos。此片在香港似乎沒有在美國的反應那麼熱烈。在美國﹐ 一整代人因為 Carl Sagan愛上了天文。Carl Sagan 是美國太空總署科學家﹐ 多次的太陽系探索任務他都是顧問﹐ 包括金星﹑火星﹑木星一系列的探索。當年﹐ Pioneer 10/11 先鋒十號/十一號太空探測船飛過木星土星﹐ 我就是看了雜誌報導迷上天文。Carl Sagan在先鋒十號/十一號太空探測船勘上兩塊鍍金的版﹐ 希望如果太空船數萬百年後遇到外星文明﹐ 那版會告訴他們地球的位置 (那是利用脈沖星相對位置)和知道地球人的樣子。
這影片是頻道製作者剪接不同科普片﹐ 配上 Carl Sagan 有聲書 "Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space"和音樂﹐ 做得好專業。
片尾大意說﹕ 因為我們的恐懼和無知﹐ 我們希望有一個常常看顧﹑保護我們的父親﹐ 會原諒我們一切過錯﹐ 我們犯錯他會救我們。但知識是比無知更可取﹐ 我們擁抱難以接納的真相﹑捨棄叫我們內心安全的信仰 (faith)。
Friday, October 29, 2010
人人惡攪主禱文
惡攪一
The Tai-Tai's Prayer
Armani, which Art in Landmark, hallowed be thy shoes.
The Prada come, thy shopping done,in Central as it is in Paris.
Give us this day our husband’s Visa gold card and have him forgive us our balance,
as we forgive those who charge interest against us.
Lead us not into Mitsukoshi and deliver us from Wing On.
For thine is the Chanel, the Gaultier and the Versace.For Dolce & Gabbana,
Amex
(By David Evans in the popular Lai See column of the South China Morning PostCited in The cult of the luxury brand, inside Asia's love affair with luxury, p.104, by Radha Chadha and Paul Husband, 2006, Nicholas Brealey Publishing)
李禱文
我們在中環的超人，願人都尊你的姓為李。願李的國降臨，願李的旨意行在香港，如同行在長實。
我們日用的物品，百佳賣給我們。免李家的稅，如同我們免窮人的福利。
不叫我們遇到風球，救我們脫離黑雨。因為住屋、電力、交通，全是李的，直到永遠。
因李，及楷，及孫之名，阿門。
The Tai-Tai's Prayer
Armani, which Art in Landmark, hallowed be thy shoes.
The Prada come, thy shopping done,in Central as it is in Paris.
Give us this day our husband’s Visa gold card and have him forgive us our balance,
as we forgive those who charge interest against us.
Lead us not into Mitsukoshi and deliver us from Wing On.
For thine is the Chanel, the Gaultier and the Versace.For Dolce & Gabbana,
Amex
(By David Evans in the popular Lai See column of the South China Morning PostCited in The cult of the luxury brand, inside Asia's love affair with luxury, p.104, by Radha Chadha and Paul Husband, 2006, Nicholas Brealey Publishing)
李禱文
我們在中環的超人，願人都尊你的姓為李。願李的國降臨，願李的旨意行在香港，如同行在長實。
我們日用的物品，百佳賣給我們。免李家的稅，如同我們免窮人的福利。
不叫我們遇到風球，救我們脫離黑雨。因為住屋、電力、交通，全是李的，直到永遠。
因李，及楷，及孫之名，阿門。
Monday, October 25, 2010
【宗教右派】新書發佈會及討論會之一：宗教右派地圖 - 副題﹕ 基右怪談錄
星期六貓貓去看新書發佈會 (“宗教右派”)﹐ 在場講者和參加者﹐ 分別講出遇到既奇聞﹐ 令發佈會好似可以加個副題﹕ 基右怪談錄
怪談一﹕ 主持之一既李偉儀小姐﹐ 是天主教徒﹐ 不過幾另類。她幫好多婦女機構。2000年有D疑似“婦女機構”都同佢幫開那些婦女機構有共同關心議題﹐ 但到一些女性主義位﹐ 就完全露出基督教右派面目。台灣大學有個學者 (唔記得名字)﹐ 在台灣既大專推行女性平權﹐ 口號為﹕ 不要性騷擾﹐ 只要性高潮 (當時議題係女大學生可以唔可以在宿舍睇A片)。發佈會現場參與者O晒嘴 -- 基督教右派女性﹐ 當然不要性騷擾﹐ 也唔要性高潮﹗
怪談二﹕ 李偉儀小姐同幾個性小眾朋友深入虎穴 -- 去影X使團批判電影“斷背山”聚會﹐ 比人招呼坐最好既位﹑還特別有幾個 camera 影
怪談三﹕ 參與者是高中女生。基督徒老師說﹐ 女性既身體只係為左生育﹐ 你們如果上大學就要快D找伴侶。女生24歲前好生BB喇....
怪談四﹕ 龔立人博士 (中文大學崇基學院副教授) 去學校幫手生命教育﹐ 耶教老師參與 (而耶教學校幾乎清一色一定係耶教老師負責生命教育)。舉行學生座談﹐ 龔立人博士舉左印度聖雄甘地既生平講﹐ 耶教老師說﹐ 點解要講甘地啊﹖ 佢唔係信徒﹐ 點解你唔講保羅 ﹖ 佢係基督教人物 wor....
怪談五﹕ 香港和美國基督教右派推行性教育﹐ 只講性知識和所謂道德教育﹑自制和所謂貞潔運動﹑戴隻“貞潔戒指仔”就可以唔會有婚前性行為 (換言之﹐ 婚後應該才是有第一次性行為) ﹐ 但唔講避孕。結果美國好多 Sex Clinic 調查﹐ 特別問求助者多一句﹐ 他們接受那類的性教育﹐ 居然有一半係所謂貞潔運動﹑戴隻“貞潔戒指仔”那種.....
怪談六﹕ Sex Clinic 求助者﹐ 那些參與所謂貞潔運動﹑戴隻“貞潔戒指仔”那些人﹐ 平均比沒有參加他們的所謂貞潔運動﹑戴隻“貞潔戒指仔”的﹐ 只是比他們延遲了第一次性行為 18個月 (人既天然慾望﹐ 年青人性慾旺盛﹐ 忍到18個月都好厲害)
怪談七﹕ 參加貞潔運動﹑戴隻“貞潔戒指仔”那些人認為陰道交是犯罪﹐ 結果男女第一次好多玩肛交 (我聽到這裡O篩嘴。。。。冏)
然後這就是其中一個最有趣的部份﹕
網上重溫﹕
據說﹐ 張國棟知道好多人去不了﹐ 序言書室人士很快上載。張國棟在 Facebook 發信息給群組成員，且附上節目重溫連結。
張國棟很快報料﹐ 疑似有人動員去舉報﹐ 導致連結一度失靈。
在《時代論壇》他也發牢騷﹕
豈料很快有群組成員反映看不到，且同時收到facebook的如下信息：
「你在嘗試進入的連結已被其他 Facebook 用戶舉報為濫用的網站。 要了解更多有關網絡瀏覽的安全問題，請參考我們使用說明中心的「安全性」頁面。你也可查看維基百科裡有關「惡意軟件」和「網路釣魚」的條目。」
相信是有些朋友不能接受討論會內容，舉報我們發放的信息，
以致facebook堵截了成員的信息接收。
請有關消息代為廣傳出去，讓更多朋友得知有關信息，
並請有興趣的朋友到dirty press在facebook的wall
和dirty press的blog（http://dirty-press.blogspot.com/）收看。謝謝！
對於影片被封﹐ 張國棟忍無可忍﹕
要令人家的 Facebook 被短暫封鎖，需要很多人投訴。究竟誰會那麼恨惡《宗教右派》一書，以致做出這惡行，檢舉/封鎖人家整個戶口？
自2004-2005年那次反 SODO ，教內早就出現民粹現象，那時只有胡志偉、胡露茜、龔立人肯承認存在。但後二者由於形像左派，沒有被理會，甚至羅秉祥撰文要求龔立人收回言論。但到最後，連蔡志森也公開呼籲人們不要盲目。可見問題十分嚴重。
但有甚麼用？這樣一種社運精神本身就是建基於恐懼和憎恨的，不管你說你多麼的理性和持平，說到底還是滿心怨恨，動不動就會草木皆兵，把所有不同意見的人都鄙視了，都憎恨了，有點像這裡的那個3715。
某些主事者，可能心底裡也歡喜有信徒如此「大發熱心」。自那時起，直到如今，這股民粹力量沒有停止過，只是該陣營人士不再提及，當無事發生，也沒有再呼籲支持者冷靜。
這是甚麼基督徒的態度和倫理？為了維護社會道德，不惜做一個下流的人，這是甚麼基督教教導？那個甚麼支持溫和自由主義的口號去了哪裡？難道又是lip service，像關懷同性戀者一樣，只是做少許，待別人想批評時就立刻祭出來罵別人妄顧事實云云，但實際上根本就是不多理會？昔日有人用一將攻城萬骨枯來形容這種策略，明明是講中了的，但明光社陣營的大將又跑出來否認，為此又罵了一會。但到了今天，我也會說，這個意識形態所擁抱的，根本就是一將攻城萬骨枯的策略。就連基督徒對異端，也未有如此熱心！
引文一番後﹐ 我會 follow-up 一個 blog -- 係延伸討論當日我問的問題﹐ 為何張國棟一個苗正根紅既福音派信徒﹑只是希望信徒論述要有理性﹑立論合理﹑手法要正當﹐ 都被信徒「憎到出汁」，甚至在我之上。
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
Posts
