Thursday, March 17, 2011
Evid3nc3 製作 -- 神的歷史
公元800-900年﹐最早的舊約寫成﹐ 只有出埃及記和部份創世記﹐裡面所載的希伯來人信仰是受到他們居住的週邊民族原始信仰影響
亞伯拉罕拜的是 El Shaddai
雅各拜的是 El Elyon
前者是山神﹐ 後者是當時多神信仰中﹐ 眾神之父
後來出現的YHWH (華人誤譯為耶和華)﹐ 是之後出現的戰神
此外古希伯來人也和其它民族一樣拜掌管風雨穀物的 Baal 巴力和他妻子(掌管生育﹑性)的 Asherah 亞舍拉﹐這種多神信仰形態和古希臘人類同﹐ 即不同人類所關注的事情有它們各自的神所掌管
YHWH抬頭是因為希伯來人受到侵略威脅﹐有人認為需要重新拜戰神獲得保護而推動的
而歷史的發展導致YHWH終于取代了所有希伯來人所拜其它的神﹐ 而且過程裡面把舊約篡改﹐ 企圖掩飾他們過往的多神信仰歷史﹐把YHWH描寫成為自有永有﹑獨一真神﹐而且編造出埃及的神話﹐鼓勵流亡的希伯來人保持盼望﹐期望復國回鄉﹐ 就好似在出埃及記那樣有YHWH打救﹐而且為了鞏固一神信仰﹐ 編造出YHWH如何滅絕拜其它神的民族﹑和把蘇美爾人洪水滅世的神話寫入去﹐ 希望不斷用威嚇來警告希伯來人別拜其它神。
YHWH嗜血殘暴的性格就是一群好戰﹑仇恨外族和其它信仰的狂熱者筆下的戰神﹐ 昇格為”真神“的結果。
《申命記》把這種排他﹑要求絕對忠誠的神人關係寫出﹐並且用裡面編造的屠殺拜別神者的命令﹐來確立這種非常嚴厲﹑排他﹑不寬容的信仰。
Wednesday, March 16, 2011
Some interesting dialogues with Christians
It all started from this post by someone:
[反基勿入]研究聖經既學者發現聖經充滿矛盾，各位基督徒點睇？ E-mail 此主題給朋友
[按此打開] [隱藏]
例子一：
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Mark 15:16-39)
vs.
Father into your hands I commend my spirit.(Luke 23:46)
MARK個VERSION耶穌就好絕望咁死，LUKE個VERSION耶穌就好放心咁死
邊個錯？
例子二：
An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. (Matthew 12:38)
vs.
五餅二魚(John 6), raising Lazarus from the dead (John 11)
MATTHEW講到明話耶穌唔會行神蹟，JOHN就語錄左好多耶穌既神蹟
邊個錯？
例子三：
每種動物有一對上左方舟
vs.
每種動物有七對上左方舟
邊個錯？
各位基督徒點睇？反基唔好搞事
=====================================================
This started a string of arguments and these are the conversations:
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 01:59 PM 發表
Since you know where to search for the contradictions on Bible, I am sure you know where to find the answers.
My reply:
What you say makes no sense -- contradictions are contradictions, they could be no answers to them -- except perhaps the writers of the Bible really did a pathetic job of proofreading and editing.
I do have one argument for you to defend your faith and the Bible:
If the Bible makes sense, have no contradictions, then it amounts to reason and it is "believable" by reason -- then there is NO need of faith. You Christians needed to use faith in believing God -- the contradictions are there to let YOU exercise your FAITH. The more absurd, contradictory, repulsive, offensive and nonsense the Bible gets the more FAITH you will need to believe it and if you BELIEVE the absurd, contradictory, repulsive, offensive and nonsense of the Bible, that proves your FAITH.
Haha, isn't that neat)
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 02:20 PM 發表
To some rising from the dead contradict the law of science...
Now you are talking abut proof reading and editing of Bible..
My reply:
Why not proof reading and editing ? At least you can make it consistent even at your most absurd account
or do you actually want your Bible to be more absurd so you prefer it to contradict science, logic, reason and even itself ? so that you can show to us that YOU HAVE GREAT FAITH
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 02:52 PM 發表
Yes, this may seem absurd and offensive and often repulsive that Christians need to have faith to believe that non-believers will be left to burn in Hell.
This need lots of faith..
My reply:
Well, indeed it is very repulsive, a father punishes his children for disobedience by death........even more repulsive is you all get to watch the torture as an entertainment at Heaven -- hahahaha
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 11:57 PM 發表
Which part of the bible said that Christians get to watch the torture as an entertainment at Heaven?
My reply:
Oh Well, you like repulsive things do you ? Why not make the Bible more repulsive so that you can exercise your faith ?
Even if it is NOT in the Bible, if it makes Christianity more repulsive, you can have more faith ? You don't even care if the Bible is contradictory, why so concern if something is in the Bible then ? (For one thing a lot of stuffs WERE ADDED TO THE BIBLE, why care about this then ?)
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 12:57 AM 發表
If you think mocking Christians will make you any happier, feel free to do so.
It won't make you any better than me or other fellow Christians.
My reply:
Yeah.....more of your deluded and arrogant thoughts -- me no better than you or other fellow Christians -- at least I am not as perverted as you and your fellow Christians who can believe in the most repulsive and perverted dogma and said it is FAITH - this is just mindless conformity
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 12:53 AM 發表
引用: 原帖由 思覺老師 於 2011-3-15 12:34 AM 發表
The above contradictions were taken from "Jesus, Interrupted" by Bart D.Ehrman.
I am more than half way through the book and have not come across the sort of "answers" you are referring to.
bigmama:
I knew that you are reading some sort of books like that..
There many different bible expert. If you choose to listen to them, that is your choice.
This will only leads to meanless debate as Pizza4 said.
My reply:
Well well, when you just dismissed the books by Bart D. Ehrman so hastily and so arrogantly, we know why WITH YOU debate is MEANINGLESS -- debate with a person that believes in the most illogical, repulsive, absurd, nonsensical, twisted, self-contradictary whilst debate requires logic, reasoning and evidence, means that one is just dealing with a "thug in debate"
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:25 PM 發表
There is no need to write such a long page for just calling me a "thug in debate" and I will call you "idiot".
My reply:
Oh no, you just don't get it do you ? I can write elaborate prose to you to show how much of a thug in debate you are, and your response just serves as such a vivid proof!
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:36 PM 發表
Ha Ha.. no, all you have shown is what an idiot that you really are.
The more you write, the bigger the idiot you are..
My reply:
Thanks for providing me a lot of scope for mocking Christians -- you failed to use logic, reasoning and evidence, but rather use prejudice, Kettle logic and childish response -- never have I seen you able to provide any coherent, logical and evidence based argument -- I think if you call one that can use coherent, logical and evidence based arguments an idiot, what can one call a person like you (cannot provide any coherent, logical and evidence based argument ) ?
Pick one
(1) Vapid
(2) Retarded
(3) Perverted
(4) Gello-head
....
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:43 PM 發表
Let me join you..
So how's your project in trying to get this "Cat" back to church??
My reply
I offer these conditions, and I "MIGHT" consider going back to church
(1) Find a church that follow John Shelby Spong's book "Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers In Exile"
(2) The church has to accept same-sex union, and accept people can be heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual, and stop discriminating people based on sexuality
(3) The church would admit that the Bible is a human document, not inspired, mythical and no shred of enlightement, except maybe for amusement
(4) The church will also admit that there is no Creation, no Adam & Eve, no Abraham/Isaac/Jacob/Joseph/Moses, the Exodus story was something cooked up by Jawist priests
(5) The church will also admit that the Pentatauch was not by Moses but edited, added to by different groups of people
(6) The church will also accept all current scientific findings explanations so far, and including the theory of Evolution which is the best explanation of biodiversity, and admit evolution occurred and produces all living things on Earth including us, and it is still occuring
(7) The church will stop judging others based on religion affiliations
(8) The church will cease poselytizing
(9) Bible reading, prayers and learning Bible will NOT be mandatory in schools founded by Christian affiliated organizations (remember they used money from the public purse)
.....
Just my first tentative list, I will add more as it comes to my mind
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 05:39 PM 發表
Round one....catwoman showing her razor-like sharp claws against bigmama, bigmama swiftly move her body around and return with a heavy punch!!!!
haha
My reply:
That is not a heavy punch but a futile attempt to save her already shaken ego.....
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:14 PM 發表
oh by the way, if church and the whole religious system are such a flaw nowadays. It wouldn't able to match up to the "church" back in the NT time. After all, they nailed the son of god using one of ...
My reply:
Do you know that it is not "the church" who nailed Jesus, but the Romans -- get yourself a decent Bible study book....
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 05:59 PM 發表
heheh..so bigmama, u give up la ^_^ she has already got a church of her own~
My reply:
You again demonstrated a flawed thinking -- nontheist or atheists or freethinkers are unchurched.
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:20 PM 發表
yes ^_^, i don't think i am able to live up to her standard ^_^. For myself, is under the influence of a self-contradictory of religious concepts rooted from basic psyclological human fears as he ...
My reply:
basic psyclological human fears / needs are what make us human
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:33 PM 發表
Got you!!...hahahahaa...
u don't get my meaning do you?~~~
My reply:
Don't play smart aleck or these stupid tricks -- say what you want to say and cut this kind of "don't get my meaning" crap -- I dislike this kind of word acrobats because this is pure dishonesty
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 07:17 PM 發表
hahahaha...me ng play lor dinner time ^_^
u so smart, u figure that out urself la~~~~ sayonara!!!
Suddenly got a good appetite~~~
My reply:
just stop your spiritual masturbating and 阿Q thing
This just add to your despicable quality
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 07:26 PM 發表
ai forget it..or u say all christians have no integrity other than having a smart mouth
"heheh..so bigmama, u give up la ^_^ she has already got a church of her own~"
For people who don't belie ...
My reply:
don't use "metaphor" as an excuse to abuse language. Otherwise you can use metaphor to justify rape, child molestation etc
This is a clear sign your mind is warped and perverted --- metaphor is not an excuse for you to deviate word's meanings as far as you wish
I am just wondering, perhaps you may use the metaphor excuse just to murder me -- and I am willing to try that -- choose a way to murder me, stab me ? poison me ? burn me alive ? It's all metaphors if you wish, isn't it ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:01 PM 發表
So, how did it feel of being insulted?
My reply:
別偷換概念﹐ 你這不是insult 而是deceive
(Don't try to mislead...this is not insult but deception)
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:26 PM 發表
ok....haha
So, how did it feel of being deceived? There are a lot more adjectives that you can use if that would make u feel any better and less defensive ~~
My reply:
I am not concerned about semantics but facts -- and it seems that you don't care about facts but semantics -- if you don't care about facts, then you are not honest and rational
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:26 PM 發表
ok....haha
So, how did it feel of being deceived? There are a lot more adjectives that you can use if that would make u feel any better and less defensive ~~
My reply:
One more point, yes, I found that I was deceived -- by Christianity -- but I let go of my ego, despite I invested a good part of my life on it, I accepted evidences, logic and reasoning -- but how about you ? or the rest of Christendom ? Deceived for 2000 years or more and choose to be deceived again and again... it is not so bad to feel deceived, it is worse to fail to feel you are deceived -- you are pathetic
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:50 PM 發表
*long sigh*
talking about the use of language, i am learning from you actually
facts? what facts you want to talk about now~ About the fact that you do have your own church, your own religio ...
My reply:
我似乎沒有說我要求my own church -- 我要求的是基督教改變﹐ 你是否那樣愚蠢以為基督教教會可以不變﹖
Facts ? 要我educate 你﹖ 我不需要人educate﹐ 而是有一顆尋求真相知識的心
你沒有﹐ 就要人幫你﹐ 你真沒用
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
There are always people around who will use religion as a mean to control/manipulate people. Bible stated that long time ago.
My reply:
Why does it has to exempt Christianity, the Apostles and even Jesus ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
The point is, whether one can grow beyond that...just gain personal experience between you and the creator himself. If failed, there will be a lot more miss cat coming to the world. Angry, feelling being cheated, used, deceived, and harbored that feeling till the very last breath
My reply:
The personal experiences you referred to are tricks you minds played on you, just like people feel that Krishna, Harry Porter are reall
You are just trying to minimize things by saying that they are "feelings" and not facts -- why do you assume that Christianity is TRUE a priori without investigating yourself and judging that ALL church leavers are just "feeling cheated, used, deceived, and harbored that feeling" instead of YOU BEING DELUDED, SELF-DECEIVING and HARBOURED THAT FALSE HOPE UNTIL YOUR VERY LAST BREATH
So called experience with the Creator requires that the Creator to be TRUE, not just at personal experience level BUT also OBJECTIVELY TRUE, DID YOU INVESTIGATE IT ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
I passed your stage already. I was like you before. You were a mirror of my past self.
My reply:
Don't be so self-conceited and assuming you understand me or you were like me.
What knowledge do you have?
I think you are just the same as the Seventh Day Adventists who were distraught when their doom's day prophecy failed by "managed to passed that stage", or the Mormon's or Jehovah's Witness (who predicted the end of the World), who once felt deceived, cheated, used -- and then hung on to THEIR FAITH just as YOU HUNG ON TO YOUR FAITH
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
If it is how you want to use your life like this, fighting to overflow god, so be it.
If this course will lead you to have a happy, meaningful and a fullfilling life, you have my very blessing
No one knows what happen when we die. I hope at that moment you don't feel any sense of regret
My reply:
Then how do you KNOW what happen when we die ?
YOU ARE NOT MUCH MORE CERTAIN THAN ANY OTHER person
Moreover, your belief is NOT evidence-based but based on mindless faith, as well as assuming that the Bible is inspired, which is NOT -- until YOU read the books by Bart D. Erhman, otherwise you have no grounds, no support to make your claims or to say you are rational
I don't need anybody's blessing - save you arrogance to yourself when you want to rape a woman
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
There are always people around who will use religion as a mean to control/manipulate people. Bible stated that long time ago.
The point is, whether one can grow beyond that...just gain personal exp ...
My reply:
Just give you one last food for thought
If the Bible is divinely inspired, why is it that God did not ensure its transmission is not free from tampering, editing and preserve ALL the originals ?
Secondly, if the Bible is divinely inspired, why is that God allow so many contradictions to creep in ? To test your faith ? To want you to give up rational thinking so that even Christianity is repulsive, absurd and perverted you can accept it with FAITH?
Thirdly, given nearly 2000 years for God to work, don't you find that this God is incompetent to keep procrastinating the End times and still having so much more unconverted (not to mention the people to leave the faith) -- try this on a salesman, you will probably fire him/her. So why do you tolerate this for a supposedly "omnipotent" God ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
time:
親愛的，這一件事你們不可忘記：在主看來，一日如千年，千年如一日
主決不耽延他的應許，像有些人以為他是耽延的一樣；其實他是寬容你們，不願有一人滅亡，卻願人人都悔改。
但主的日子必要像賊一樣來到。在那日，天必轟然一聲地消失，所有元素都因烈火而融化；地和地上所有的，都要被燒毀。
彼得後書 3 (i.e. GOD SENSE OF TIME IS WAY DIFFERENT FROM HUMAN'S TIMELINE)
My reply
這樣同回答“人的意念不能夠理解神” - God works in mysterious ways 一樣﹐ 不是答案
如果按照你的標準﹐ God sense of morality is WAY DIFFERENT FROM HUMAN's standard, 於是神就可以屠殺大人﹑細路﹑BB﹐ 你都要稱讚神﹖
同樣地﹐ God's sense of "suffering" is way different from human's sense about suffering -- 我現在明白為何你們咁有能力﹑忍耐到全地球不同地方受極度苦難都可以笑得出﹑感謝神啦﹐ 然後當全地球無數人﹑幾千年受盡苦﹐ 耶穌響個十字架上受6-7小時苦你們可以呼天搶地慘過死老豆咁﹐ 我都開始明白啦
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
In conclusion, we don't have the intellectual level required to take God on this case why there are so few being saved. We don't have the actual data nor what will happen during the end times. But of course, you can choose to challenge god as always Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind.
My reply:
You are contradicting yourself -- if you don't have the intellectual level required to take God on this case why there are so few being saved or the actual data nor what will happen during the end times, how can you defend God as though you know so much about God ?
When you say: you can choose to challenge god as always Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind
Are you threatening me then?
OK, this argument works against Christians too: you can choose to defend and follow God, Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
numbers:
以賽亞指著以色列人大聲說：“以色列子孫的數目雖然多如海沙，得救的不過是剩下的餘數；因為主必在地上迅速而徹底地成就他的話。”
又如以賽亞早已說過的：“如果不是萬軍之主給我們存留後裔，我們早就像所多瑪和蛾摩拉一樣了。”
羅馬書 9 (GOD KNOWS THE FEW WILL BE SAVED, EVEN FOR THE JEWS)
耶穌經過各城各鄉，往耶路撒冷去，沿途教導人。
有一個人問他：“主啊，是不是只有很少的人得救呢？”他對眾人說：
“你們應當竭力進窄門！我告訴你們，將來許多人要進去，卻是不能。
等到家主起來關上門，你們站在門外叩門說：‘主啊，給我們開門！’他要回答你們：‘我不知道你們是從哪裡來的。’
路加福音 13 (MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS AND WORK ON YOUR SALVATION. OTHERWISE, YOU WILL BE LOST FOREVER AS WELL)
My reply:
Now you are cherry-picking from the Bible to find verses that support your ad-hoc argument in defense of the "numbers"
In fact, Paul says the opposite: 提摩太前書 2:4 他願意萬人得救、明白真道．
So are you saying that God only has a "wish" but he cannot make it happen ? Some omnipotent, benevolent God....
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:53 AM 發表
You live in a box.. and the box is called "Science"
And you live in a world without love since you cannot scientificly prove that Love exist..
Really sorry for you.. but I guess you don't need that since you have already classify yourself just another animal living on this planet what eat, sleep, and poo...
My reply:
You are living in a prison called FAITH and PREJUDICE.
You, like me, is also one of the species of animal, homo sapiens, a kind of animal living on this planet what eat, sleep, and poo -- animals love too, you are being ignorant and arrogant to even deny that animals like dogs, cats, birds, dolphins, elephants, apes have the capability of love -- zoologists observing mammals have literally documented so many cases of animal exhibiting romantic and maternal love that only idiots will say animals cannot love.
we are also a kind of advanced animal with capability to love like many others, but also a capability of cognitive power, creativity, imagination and abstract thinking, just that our brains are so evolved to this extent.
Being scientifically minded does not mean a person is not living in a world without love -- love exist because it occurs naturally around us, and love and can be proven to exist scientifically because love has to manifest in loving behavior, and this is observable, and moreover, during different types of loves, our brain and hormones are there for us to see.
Love is actually not so "unscientific" or "supernatural" as you imagine or being taught in church -- whether it is maternal love (parent love), romantic love or fellow love, it can be seen and observed in areas of our brain that lights up, and the flow of a hormone called oxytocin.
Science, as we now know, is beginning even to dash away the mystery of love and emotions
http://www.oxytocin.org/oxytoc/love-science.html
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
I have not yet found any contradcitions of what you mentioned from above. Having said that, i guess you can prepare a long list of flaws and errors recorded in the bible that we are wrong and you are right.
My reply:
I don't have to prepare that list, it is well known, even among Biblical scholars, please don't be such a lazy bone and requiring others to spoon feed you, find it out yourself -- KNOW YOUR BIBLE
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
Ok, you are treating the Bible like a phone book But, is the purpose of the bible should be treated like a phone book with 0 error? The purpose of the bible is to show life. I truly don't know how to explain it to you since you abandoned this life already.
My reply:
Explanations, as long as they are logical, reasonable, evidence based, do not need an a priori "acceptance of life" (versus your "you abandoned this life" judgment) in order it can be convincing and compelling.
你要我重新接納你所謂 “abandoned life" 才可以解釋比我﹐ 可能有以下原因
(1) You want me to give up reasoning, logic and rational thinking -- this hardly is a gesture of goodwill, only a gesture of enslavement and mind control
(2) You just run out of all reasoning, logic and rational explanations, and all you can is to provide circular logic, kettle logic or other absurd "ideas", and pretending them to be "explanations" -- but for me to accept these circular logic, kettle logic or other absurd "ideas", I have to be same as you -- you judge me only on the grounds whether I believe the same God as you, NOT by the merit of the individual arguments -- so please stop pretending you are treating me as equals or you are showing charity to me -- all you have been doing is patronizing
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
And what if God intentionally leave the errors there for us to critic? Would that be ridiculously possible? Why not? God knows we are no super computers.
My reply:
"what if" ? So all of your belief are just based on "what if " wild guesses which cannot be substantiated ?
So your faith includes conjecturing possibilities that are so far fetched ?
Or is it you are so desperate to cling on to this faith that any far fetched and absurd notions, as long as it shore up your faith, you will use it ?
This shows that you are really admitting your failure in facts, rational thinking and evidence -- WHY NOT JUST SAY YOU CANNOT ANSWER ME RATHER THAN MAKING A COMPLETE FOOL OF YOURSELF???
I think, I have given you way to much credit for being reasonable -- when it comes to your "precious faith", all of your rationality break down.
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
Thru out the history God is using ordinary people, common people just like u and me to accomplish his will. The choice is yours, you can call God nuts, or you can call God being graceful, for allowing us to transmit his holy words even we couldn't get everything correctly 100%. If you are a person of grace, you can see that. If you are a perfectionist and a hard critics for yourself, you will see numerous of flaws and contradictions.
Let me guess, so you are admitting God is NOT a perfectionist, NOT a hard critic -- alright, why doesn't God take YOUR ADVICE and stop being a PERFECTIONIST, and just ACCEPT us and SAVE us as we are, not requiring us to change, to believe in Him, to repent etc ?
Grace does not mean you allow gross errors or repulsive teachings, such as slaying of children, throwing babies onto rocks to crush them, looting and plundering people, drowning every being on Earth just because God himself is not a PERFECTIONIST so he cannot make us perfect etc.
Insisting the Bible should be error free is because of YOU -- you Christians claims to base your belief on your BIBLE, it is your moral compass, a guide on life -- but hey hey hey -- it has numerous of flaws and contradictions plain to ordinary people, common people just like you and me -- and you said that the Bible can at the same time be RELIABLE but also has numerous of flaws and contradictions -- you are like saying that a husband has fidelity to his wife even if he goes out to have sex with prostitutes once every other night or have a romantic relationship with another woman -- tell that with stop being a perfectionist and self-critic ?
原帖由 RS_Latch 於 2011-3-16 09:56 AM 發表
Why waste time? She just wanna find "God in the test tube", basically hoping to find the statement that "A and !A" is true. Then, she will keep asking other stupid questions one after another.
My reply:
RS_Latch﹐ 作大話使唔使作到咁﹖ 你話我 ”basically hoping to find the statement that "A and !A" is true.“﹐ 請問我在咩言論﹑討論過程裡面顯示過我這樣的企圖和想法﹖
你維護基督教﹐ 唔該都顧及你個人既誠信 -- 作大話進行這種人格謀殺﹐ 也實在卑鄙了點
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:47 AM 發表
If the Bible is divinely inspired, why is it that God did not ensure its transmission is not free from tampering, editing and preserve ALL the originals ?
(Blue text) Why do we need to preserve all the original to testify that the Bible is divinely inspiried? Jesus was there at that time, he performed plenty of miricles but people did not believe in Him. So it is not the matter of any originals or not. It is all about the people themselves.
My reply:
The words in blue up there is based on what is recorded in the Bible we have -- so if the Bible is being tampered/edited/added to etc, how can you be sure that those WERE THE ORIGINAL account and NOT A LATER FABRICATION ?
FAITH again ?
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:47 AM 發表
Secondly, if the Bible is divinely inspired, why is that God allow so many contradictions to creep in ? To test your faith ? To want you to give up rational thinking so that even Christianity is repulsive, absurd and perverted you can accept it with FAITH?
(Blue text) Are they really contradictions? Or just questions waiting to be answered? Were you there? Any evidence that they really contradict each others??
My reply:
To name just two contradictions
(1) What is the year at which Jesus born
Not later than 4 BCE -- in Matthew it is reported that Jesus was born during the times of King Herod
After 6 CE -- in Luke, it is reported that Jesus was born during the term of Quirinius as Governor of Judea and the census on Judea (census by Roman Empire could not have occurred BEFORE 6 CE as only by 6CE did the province of Judea became annexed to the Roman empire and thus taxation policy of Roman Empire applies, before that they were treated as foreign land which submitted to Roman Empire's force)
(2) Was Jesus crucified BEFORE he had the Passover Meal or AFTER
BEFORE -- Gospel of John
AFTER -- Matthew, Luke and Mark
(3) Who was the grandfather of Jesus ?
Jacob or Heli?
Don't try to pull the Mary side of the geneology thing here
(a) A patriarchal society NO geneology of women would be kept
(b) none of it says that Heli was Joseph's "father-in-law"
Of course, if you can accept that the Bible can be edited and tampered with, I think you should consider praying that somebody will fund a full re-edit of the Bible to edit out all of the contradictions....
[反基勿入]研究聖經既學者發現聖經充滿矛盾，各位基督徒點睇？ E-mail 此主題給朋友
[按此打開] [隱藏]
例子一：
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Mark 15:16-39)
vs.
Father into your hands I commend my spirit.(Luke 23:46)
MARK個VERSION耶穌就好絕望咁死，LUKE個VERSION耶穌就好放心咁死
邊個錯？
例子二：
An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. (Matthew 12:38)
vs.
五餅二魚(John 6), raising Lazarus from the dead (John 11)
MATTHEW講到明話耶穌唔會行神蹟，JOHN就語錄左好多耶穌既神蹟
邊個錯？
例子三：
每種動物有一對上左方舟
vs.
每種動物有七對上左方舟
邊個錯？
各位基督徒點睇？反基唔好搞事
=====================================================
This started a string of arguments and these are the conversations:
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 01:59 PM 發表
Since you know where to search for the contradictions on Bible, I am sure you know where to find the answers.
My reply:
What you say makes no sense -- contradictions are contradictions, they could be no answers to them -- except perhaps the writers of the Bible really did a pathetic job of proofreading and editing.
I do have one argument for you to defend your faith and the Bible:
If the Bible makes sense, have no contradictions, then it amounts to reason and it is "believable" by reason -- then there is NO need of faith. You Christians needed to use faith in believing God -- the contradictions are there to let YOU exercise your FAITH. The more absurd, contradictory, repulsive, offensive and nonsense the Bible gets the more FAITH you will need to believe it and if you BELIEVE the absurd, contradictory, repulsive, offensive and nonsense of the Bible, that proves your FAITH.
Haha, isn't that neat)
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 02:20 PM 發表
To some rising from the dead contradict the law of science...
Now you are talking abut proof reading and editing of Bible..
My reply:
Why not proof reading and editing ? At least you can make it consistent even at your most absurd account
or do you actually want your Bible to be more absurd so you prefer it to contradict science, logic, reason and even itself ? so that you can show to us that YOU HAVE GREAT FAITH
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 02:52 PM 發表
Yes, this may seem absurd and offensive and often repulsive that Christians need to have faith to believe that non-believers will be left to burn in Hell.
This need lots of faith..
My reply:
Well, indeed it is very repulsive, a father punishes his children for disobedience by death........even more repulsive is you all get to watch the torture as an entertainment at Heaven -- hahahaha
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-14 11:57 PM 發表
Which part of the bible said that Christians get to watch the torture as an entertainment at Heaven?
My reply:
Oh Well, you like repulsive things do you ? Why not make the Bible more repulsive so that you can exercise your faith ?
Even if it is NOT in the Bible, if it makes Christianity more repulsive, you can have more faith ? You don't even care if the Bible is contradictory, why so concern if something is in the Bible then ? (For one thing a lot of stuffs WERE ADDED TO THE BIBLE, why care about this then ?)
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 12:57 AM 發表
If you think mocking Christians will make you any happier, feel free to do so.
It won't make you any better than me or other fellow Christians.
My reply:
Yeah.....more of your deluded and arrogant thoughts -- me no better than you or other fellow Christians -- at least I am not as perverted as you and your fellow Christians who can believe in the most repulsive and perverted dogma and said it is FAITH - this is just mindless conformity
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 12:53 AM 發表
引用: 原帖由 思覺老師 於 2011-3-15 12:34 AM 發表
The above contradictions were taken from "Jesus, Interrupted" by Bart D.Ehrman.
I am more than half way through the book and have not come across the sort of "answers" you are referring to.
bigmama:
I knew that you are reading some sort of books like that..
There many different bible expert. If you choose to listen to them, that is your choice.
This will only leads to meanless debate as Pizza4 said.
My reply:
Well well, when you just dismissed the books by Bart D. Ehrman so hastily and so arrogantly, we know why WITH YOU debate is MEANINGLESS -- debate with a person that believes in the most illogical, repulsive, absurd, nonsensical, twisted, self-contradictary whilst debate requires logic, reasoning and evidence, means that one is just dealing with a "thug in debate"
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:25 PM 發表
There is no need to write such a long page for just calling me a "thug in debate" and I will call you "idiot".
My reply:
Oh no, you just don't get it do you ? I can write elaborate prose to you to show how much of a thug in debate you are, and your response just serves as such a vivid proof!
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:36 PM 發表
Ha Ha.. no, all you have shown is what an idiot that you really are.
The more you write, the bigger the idiot you are..
My reply:
Thanks for providing me a lot of scope for mocking Christians -- you failed to use logic, reasoning and evidence, but rather use prejudice, Kettle logic and childish response -- never have I seen you able to provide any coherent, logical and evidence based argument -- I think if you call one that can use coherent, logical and evidence based arguments an idiot, what can one call a person like you (cannot provide any coherent, logical and evidence based argument ) ?
Pick one
(1) Vapid
(2) Retarded
(3) Perverted
(4) Gello-head
....
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-15 05:43 PM 發表
Let me join you..
So how's your project in trying to get this "Cat" back to church??
My reply
I offer these conditions, and I "MIGHT" consider going back to church
(1) Find a church that follow John Shelby Spong's book "Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers In Exile"
(2) The church has to accept same-sex union, and accept people can be heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual, and stop discriminating people based on sexuality
(3) The church would admit that the Bible is a human document, not inspired, mythical and no shred of enlightement, except maybe for amusement
(4) The church will also admit that there is no Creation, no Adam & Eve, no Abraham/Isaac/Jacob/Joseph/Moses, the Exodus story was something cooked up by Jawist priests
(5) The church will also admit that the Pentatauch was not by Moses but edited, added to by different groups of people
(6) The church will also accept all current scientific findings explanations so far, and including the theory of Evolution which is the best explanation of biodiversity, and admit evolution occurred and produces all living things on Earth including us, and it is still occuring
(7) The church will stop judging others based on religion affiliations
(8) The church will cease poselytizing
(9) Bible reading, prayers and learning Bible will NOT be mandatory in schools founded by Christian affiliated organizations (remember they used money from the public purse)
.....
Just my first tentative list, I will add more as it comes to my mind
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 05:39 PM 發表
Round one....catwoman showing her razor-like sharp claws against bigmama, bigmama swiftly move her body around and return with a heavy punch!!!!
haha
My reply:
That is not a heavy punch but a futile attempt to save her already shaken ego.....
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:14 PM 發表
oh by the way, if church and the whole religious system are such a flaw nowadays. It wouldn't able to match up to the "church" back in the NT time. After all, they nailed the son of god using one of ...
My reply:
Do you know that it is not "the church" who nailed Jesus, but the Romans -- get yourself a decent Bible study book....
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 05:59 PM 發表
heheh..so bigmama, u give up la ^_^ she has already got a church of her own~
My reply:
You again demonstrated a flawed thinking -- nontheist or atheists or freethinkers are unchurched.
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:20 PM 發表
yes ^_^, i don't think i am able to live up to her standard ^_^. For myself, is under the influence of a self-contradictory of religious concepts rooted from basic psyclological human fears as he ...
My reply:
basic psyclological human fears / needs are what make us human
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 06:33 PM 發表
Got you!!...hahahahaa...
u don't get my meaning do you?~~~
My reply:
Don't play smart aleck or these stupid tricks -- say what you want to say and cut this kind of "don't get my meaning" crap -- I dislike this kind of word acrobats because this is pure dishonesty
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 07:17 PM 發表
hahahaha...me ng play lor dinner time ^_^
u so smart, u figure that out urself la~~~~ sayonara!!!
Suddenly got a good appetite~~~
My reply:
just stop your spiritual masturbating and 阿Q thing
This just add to your despicable quality
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 07:26 PM 發表
ai forget it..or u say all christians have no integrity other than having a smart mouth
"heheh..so bigmama, u give up la ^_^ she has already got a church of her own~"
For people who don't belie ...
My reply:
don't use "metaphor" as an excuse to abuse language. Otherwise you can use metaphor to justify rape, child molestation etc
This is a clear sign your mind is warped and perverted --- metaphor is not an excuse for you to deviate word's meanings as far as you wish
I am just wondering, perhaps you may use the metaphor excuse just to murder me -- and I am willing to try that -- choose a way to murder me, stab me ? poison me ? burn me alive ? It's all metaphors if you wish, isn't it ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:01 PM 發表
So, how did it feel of being insulted?
My reply:
別偷換概念﹐ 你這不是insult 而是deceive
(Don't try to mislead...this is not insult but deception)
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:26 PM 發表
ok....haha
So, how did it feel of being deceived? There are a lot more adjectives that you can use if that would make u feel any better and less defensive ~~
My reply:
I am not concerned about semantics but facts -- and it seems that you don't care about facts but semantics -- if you don't care about facts, then you are not honest and rational
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:26 PM 發表
ok....haha
So, how did it feel of being deceived? There are a lot more adjectives that you can use if that would make u feel any better and less defensive ~~
My reply:
One more point, yes, I found that I was deceived -- by Christianity -- but I let go of my ego, despite I invested a good part of my life on it, I accepted evidences, logic and reasoning -- but how about you ? or the rest of Christendom ? Deceived for 2000 years or more and choose to be deceived again and again... it is not so bad to feel deceived, it is worse to fail to feel you are deceived -- you are pathetic
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-15 11:50 PM 發表
*long sigh*
talking about the use of language, i am learning from you actually
facts? what facts you want to talk about now~ About the fact that you do have your own church, your own religio ...
My reply:
我似乎沒有說我要求my own church -- 我要求的是基督教改變﹐ 你是否那樣愚蠢以為基督教教會可以不變﹖
Facts ? 要我educate 你﹖ 我不需要人educate﹐ 而是有一顆尋求真相知識的心
你沒有﹐ 就要人幫你﹐ 你真沒用
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
There are always people around who will use religion as a mean to control/manipulate people. Bible stated that long time ago.
My reply:
Why does it has to exempt Christianity, the Apostles and even Jesus ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
The point is, whether one can grow beyond that...just gain personal experience between you and the creator himself. If failed, there will be a lot more miss cat coming to the world. Angry, feelling being cheated, used, deceived, and harbored that feeling till the very last breath
My reply:
The personal experiences you referred to are tricks you minds played on you, just like people feel that Krishna, Harry Porter are reall
You are just trying to minimize things by saying that they are "feelings" and not facts -- why do you assume that Christianity is TRUE a priori without investigating yourself and judging that ALL church leavers are just "feeling cheated, used, deceived, and harbored that feeling" instead of YOU BEING DELUDED, SELF-DECEIVING and HARBOURED THAT FALSE HOPE UNTIL YOUR VERY LAST BREATH
So called experience with the Creator requires that the Creator to be TRUE, not just at personal experience level BUT also OBJECTIVELY TRUE, DID YOU INVESTIGATE IT ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
I passed your stage already. I was like you before. You were a mirror of my past self.
My reply:
Don't be so self-conceited and assuming you understand me or you were like me.
What knowledge do you have?
I think you are just the same as the Seventh Day Adventists who were distraught when their doom's day prophecy failed by "managed to passed that stage", or the Mormon's or Jehovah's Witness (who predicted the end of the World), who once felt deceived, cheated, used -- and then hung on to THEIR FAITH just as YOU HUNG ON TO YOUR FAITH
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
If it is how you want to use your life like this, fighting to overflow god, so be it.
If this course will lead you to have a happy, meaningful and a fullfilling life, you have my very blessing
No one knows what happen when we die. I hope at that moment you don't feel any sense of regret
My reply:
Then how do you KNOW what happen when we die ?
YOU ARE NOT MUCH MORE CERTAIN THAN ANY OTHER person
Moreover, your belief is NOT evidence-based but based on mindless faith, as well as assuming that the Bible is inspired, which is NOT -- until YOU read the books by Bart D. Erhman, otherwise you have no grounds, no support to make your claims or to say you are rational
I don't need anybody's blessing - save you arrogance to yourself when you want to rape a woman
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 12:18 AM 發表
There are always people around who will use religion as a mean to control/manipulate people. Bible stated that long time ago.
The point is, whether one can grow beyond that...just gain personal exp ...
My reply:
Just give you one last food for thought
If the Bible is divinely inspired, why is it that God did not ensure its transmission is not free from tampering, editing and preserve ALL the originals ?
Secondly, if the Bible is divinely inspired, why is that God allow so many contradictions to creep in ? To test your faith ? To want you to give up rational thinking so that even Christianity is repulsive, absurd and perverted you can accept it with FAITH?
Thirdly, given nearly 2000 years for God to work, don't you find that this God is incompetent to keep procrastinating the End times and still having so much more unconverted (not to mention the people to leave the faith) -- try this on a salesman, you will probably fire him/her. So why do you tolerate this for a supposedly "omnipotent" God ?
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
time:
親愛的，這一件事你們不可忘記：在主看來，一日如千年，千年如一日
主決不耽延他的應許，像有些人以為他是耽延的一樣；其實他是寬容你們，不願有一人滅亡，卻願人人都悔改。
但主的日子必要像賊一樣來到。在那日，天必轟然一聲地消失，所有元素都因烈火而融化；地和地上所有的，都要被燒毀。
彼得後書 3 (i.e. GOD SENSE OF TIME IS WAY DIFFERENT FROM HUMAN'S TIMELINE)
My reply
這樣同回答“人的意念不能夠理解神” - God works in mysterious ways 一樣﹐ 不是答案
如果按照你的標準﹐ God sense of morality is WAY DIFFERENT FROM HUMAN's standard, 於是神就可以屠殺大人﹑細路﹑BB﹐ 你都要稱讚神﹖
同樣地﹐ God's sense of "suffering" is way different from human's sense about suffering -- 我現在明白為何你們咁有能力﹑忍耐到全地球不同地方受極度苦難都可以笑得出﹑感謝神啦﹐ 然後當全地球無數人﹑幾千年受盡苦﹐ 耶穌響個十字架上受6-7小時苦你們可以呼天搶地慘過死老豆咁﹐ 我都開始明白啦
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
In conclusion, we don't have the intellectual level required to take God on this case why there are so few being saved. We don't have the actual data nor what will happen during the end times. But of course, you can choose to challenge god as always Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind.
My reply:
You are contradicting yourself -- if you don't have the intellectual level required to take God on this case why there are so few being saved or the actual data nor what will happen during the end times, how can you defend God as though you know so much about God ?
When you say: you can choose to challenge god as always Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind
Are you threatening me then?
OK, this argument works against Christians too: you can choose to defend and follow God, Many did try thru out the human history, result? Death as usual, and leaving an ugly legacy in behind
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 07:42 PM 發表
numbers:
以賽亞指著以色列人大聲說：“以色列子孫的數目雖然多如海沙，得救的不過是剩下的餘數；因為主必在地上迅速而徹底地成就他的話。”
又如以賽亞早已說過的：“如果不是萬軍之主給我們存留後裔，我們早就像所多瑪和蛾摩拉一樣了。”
羅馬書 9 (GOD KNOWS THE FEW WILL BE SAVED, EVEN FOR THE JEWS)
耶穌經過各城各鄉，往耶路撒冷去，沿途教導人。
有一個人問他：“主啊，是不是只有很少的人得救呢？”他對眾人說：
“你們應當竭力進窄門！我告訴你們，將來許多人要進去，卻是不能。
等到家主起來關上門，你們站在門外叩門說：‘主啊，給我們開門！’他要回答你們：‘我不知道你們是從哪裡來的。’
路加福音 13 (MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS AND WORK ON YOUR SALVATION. OTHERWISE, YOU WILL BE LOST FOREVER AS WELL)
My reply:
Now you are cherry-picking from the Bible to find verses that support your ad-hoc argument in defense of the "numbers"
In fact, Paul says the opposite: 提摩太前書 2:4 他願意萬人得救、明白真道．
So are you saying that God only has a "wish" but he cannot make it happen ? Some omnipotent, benevolent God....
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:53 AM 發表
You live in a box.. and the box is called "Science"
And you live in a world without love since you cannot scientificly prove that Love exist..
Really sorry for you.. but I guess you don't need that since you have already classify yourself just another animal living on this planet what eat, sleep, and poo...
My reply:
You are living in a prison called FAITH and PREJUDICE.
You, like me, is also one of the species of animal, homo sapiens, a kind of animal living on this planet what eat, sleep, and poo -- animals love too, you are being ignorant and arrogant to even deny that animals like dogs, cats, birds, dolphins, elephants, apes have the capability of love -- zoologists observing mammals have literally documented so many cases of animal exhibiting romantic and maternal love that only idiots will say animals cannot love.
we are also a kind of advanced animal with capability to love like many others, but also a capability of cognitive power, creativity, imagination and abstract thinking, just that our brains are so evolved to this extent.
Being scientifically minded does not mean a person is not living in a world without love -- love exist because it occurs naturally around us, and love and can be proven to exist scientifically because love has to manifest in loving behavior, and this is observable, and moreover, during different types of loves, our brain and hormones are there for us to see.
Love is actually not so "unscientific" or "supernatural" as you imagine or being taught in church -- whether it is maternal love (parent love), romantic love or fellow love, it can be seen and observed in areas of our brain that lights up, and the flow of a hormone called oxytocin.
Science, as we now know, is beginning even to dash away the mystery of love and emotions
http://www.oxytocin.org/oxytoc/love-science.html
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
I have not yet found any contradcitions of what you mentioned from above. Having said that, i guess you can prepare a long list of flaws and errors recorded in the bible that we are wrong and you are right.
My reply:
I don't have to prepare that list, it is well known, even among Biblical scholars, please don't be such a lazy bone and requiring others to spoon feed you, find it out yourself -- KNOW YOUR BIBLE
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
Ok, you are treating the Bible like a phone book But, is the purpose of the bible should be treated like a phone book with 0 error? The purpose of the bible is to show life. I truly don't know how to explain it to you since you abandoned this life already.
My reply:
Explanations, as long as they are logical, reasonable, evidence based, do not need an a priori "acceptance of life" (versus your "you abandoned this life" judgment) in order it can be convincing and compelling.
你要我重新接納你所謂 “abandoned life" 才可以解釋比我﹐ 可能有以下原因
(1) You want me to give up reasoning, logic and rational thinking -- this hardly is a gesture of goodwill, only a gesture of enslavement and mind control
(2) You just run out of all reasoning, logic and rational explanations, and all you can is to provide circular logic, kettle logic or other absurd "ideas", and pretending them to be "explanations" -- but for me to accept these circular logic, kettle logic or other absurd "ideas", I have to be same as you -- you judge me only on the grounds whether I believe the same God as you, NOT by the merit of the individual arguments -- so please stop pretending you are treating me as equals or you are showing charity to me -- all you have been doing is patronizing
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
And what if God intentionally leave the errors there for us to critic? Would that be ridiculously possible? Why not? God knows we are no super computers.
My reply:
"what if" ? So all of your belief are just based on "what if " wild guesses which cannot be substantiated ?
So your faith includes conjecturing possibilities that are so far fetched ?
Or is it you are so desperate to cling on to this faith that any far fetched and absurd notions, as long as it shore up your faith, you will use it ?
This shows that you are really admitting your failure in facts, rational thinking and evidence -- WHY NOT JUST SAY YOU CANNOT ANSWER ME RATHER THAN MAKING A COMPLETE FOOL OF YOURSELF???
I think, I have given you way to much credit for being reasonable -- when it comes to your "precious faith", all of your rationality break down.
原帖由 pizza4 於 2011-3-16 04:19 PM 發表
Thru out the history God is using ordinary people, common people just like u and me to accomplish his will. The choice is yours, you can call God nuts, or you can call God being graceful, for allowing us to transmit his holy words even we couldn't get everything correctly 100%. If you are a person of grace, you can see that. If you are a perfectionist and a hard critics for yourself, you will see numerous of flaws and contradictions.
Let me guess, so you are admitting God is NOT a perfectionist, NOT a hard critic -- alright, why doesn't God take YOUR ADVICE and stop being a PERFECTIONIST, and just ACCEPT us and SAVE us as we are, not requiring us to change, to believe in Him, to repent etc ?
Grace does not mean you allow gross errors or repulsive teachings, such as slaying of children, throwing babies onto rocks to crush them, looting and plundering people, drowning every being on Earth just because God himself is not a PERFECTIONIST so he cannot make us perfect etc.
Insisting the Bible should be error free is because of YOU -- you Christians claims to base your belief on your BIBLE, it is your moral compass, a guide on life -- but hey hey hey -- it has numerous of flaws and contradictions plain to ordinary people, common people just like you and me -- and you said that the Bible can at the same time be RELIABLE but also has numerous of flaws and contradictions -- you are like saying that a husband has fidelity to his wife even if he goes out to have sex with prostitutes once every other night or have a romantic relationship with another woman -- tell that with stop being a perfectionist and self-critic ?
原帖由 RS_Latch 於 2011-3-16 09:56 AM 發表
Why waste time? She just wanna find "God in the test tube", basically hoping to find the statement that "A and !A" is true. Then, she will keep asking other stupid questions one after another.
My reply:
RS_Latch﹐ 作大話使唔使作到咁﹖ 你話我 ”basically hoping to find the statement that "A and !A" is true.“﹐ 請問我在咩言論﹑討論過程裡面顯示過我這樣的企圖和想法﹖
你維護基督教﹐ 唔該都顧及你個人既誠信 -- 作大話進行這種人格謀殺﹐ 也實在卑鄙了點
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:47 AM 發表
If the Bible is divinely inspired, why is it that God did not ensure its transmission is not free from tampering, editing and preserve ALL the originals ?
(Blue text) Why do we need to preserve all the original to testify that the Bible is divinely inspiried? Jesus was there at that time, he performed plenty of miricles but people did not believe in Him. So it is not the matter of any originals or not. It is all about the people themselves.
My reply:
The words in blue up there is based on what is recorded in the Bible we have -- so if the Bible is being tampered/edited/added to etc, how can you be sure that those WERE THE ORIGINAL account and NOT A LATER FABRICATION ?
FAITH again ?
原帖由 bigmama 於 2011-3-16 12:47 AM 發表
Secondly, if the Bible is divinely inspired, why is that God allow so many contradictions to creep in ? To test your faith ? To want you to give up rational thinking so that even Christianity is repulsive, absurd and perverted you can accept it with FAITH?
(Blue text) Are they really contradictions? Or just questions waiting to be answered? Were you there? Any evidence that they really contradict each others??
My reply:
To name just two contradictions
(1) What is the year at which Jesus born
Not later than 4 BCE -- in Matthew it is reported that Jesus was born during the times of King Herod
After 6 CE -- in Luke, it is reported that Jesus was born during the term of Quirinius as Governor of Judea and the census on Judea (census by Roman Empire could not have occurred BEFORE 6 CE as only by 6CE did the province of Judea became annexed to the Roman empire and thus taxation policy of Roman Empire applies, before that they were treated as foreign land which submitted to Roman Empire's force)
(2) Was Jesus crucified BEFORE he had the Passover Meal or AFTER
BEFORE -- Gospel of John
AFTER -- Matthew, Luke and Mark
(3) Who was the grandfather of Jesus ?
Jacob or Heli?
Don't try to pull the Mary side of the geneology thing here
(a) A patriarchal society NO geneology of women would be kept
(b) none of it says that Heli was Joseph's "father-in-law"
Of course, if you can accept that the Bible can be edited and tampered with, I think you should consider praying that somebody will fund a full re-edit of the Bible to edit out all of the contradictions....
Monday, March 14, 2011
趁災難傳教之聲仍然出現
之前紐西蘭基督城地震有耶徒話因為基督城容納同性戀和容許墮胎合法化而招致災禍﹐日本發生9級地震又有耶能話因為日本絕大多數不信耶穌故此招致災禍﹐又話係末日先兆。
成版耶能都不知道﹐紐西蘭﹑日本﹐2004年發生的南亞地震的印尼﹐全部屬於太平洋板塊邊緣所謂的 ring of fire﹐是地震頻繁和有強烈地震的地方來的﹐根本只是地球地殼變化週期﹐而非什麼末日。
可能上次南亞海嘯比人鬧爆﹐呢次都唔敢大大聲話地震是來自神對日本既懲罰 (私底下﹑在教會關起門有沒有講就唔知道了)。
想起這篇講基督徒的舊文﹐ 不得不貼出來 (來自張小鳴的 blog)
基督徒這個名字，在外界原來咁乞人憎。基督徒成為特權階級，某些社福機構和辦學團體是基督教和天主教附屬的，申請政府公帑，但只請基督徒。昨天有社工朋友表示， 有些想入社福界和教育界的朋友們，必須假扮基督徒，返教會，以增加搵工機會。亦有個案是因為不是基督徒，所以在社福界生存，不能同工同酬……工作能力和使命感真的與洗禮與否，是否信教有關係嗎？這是很嚴重的宗教歧視的行為。再加上普遍基督徒的反同志立場，亦令公眾十分反感。某大教會為維護教義傳統，把同性戀污名化，並介入政府，以政策控制 他人自己，令人齒冷。外界給予基督徒一個新的稱 號，稱作「耶能(2聲)」。昨天的金句係：「阿 sir你咁好人，點會係基督徒？」以前基督徒給人「好人」的形象，現在基督徒卻是令人憎厭..
成版耶能都不知道﹐紐西蘭﹑日本﹐2004年發生的南亞地震的印尼﹐全部屬於太平洋板塊邊緣所謂的 ring of fire﹐是地震頻繁和有強烈地震的地方來的﹐根本只是地球地殼變化週期﹐而非什麼末日。
可能上次南亞海嘯比人鬧爆﹐呢次都唔敢大大聲話地震是來自神對日本既懲罰 (私底下﹑在教會關起門有沒有講就唔知道了)。
想起這篇講基督徒的舊文﹐ 不得不貼出來 (來自張小鳴的 blog)
基督徒這個名字，在外界原來咁乞人憎。基督徒成為特權階級，某些社福機構和辦學團體是基督教和天主教附屬的，申請政府公帑，但只請基督徒。昨天有社工朋友表示， 有些想入社福界和教育界的朋友們，必須假扮基督徒，返教會，以增加搵工機會。亦有個案是因為不是基督徒，所以在社福界生存，不能同工同酬……工作能力和使命感真的與洗禮與否，是否信教有關係嗎？這是很嚴重的宗教歧視的行為。再加上普遍基督徒的反同志立場，亦令公眾十分反感。某大教會為維護教義傳統，把同性戀污名化，並介入政府，以政策控制 他人自己，令人齒冷。外界給予基督徒一個新的稱 號，稱作「耶能(2聲)」。昨天的金句係：「阿 sir你咁好人，點會係基督徒？」以前基督徒給人「好人」的形象，現在基督徒卻是令人憎厭..
Friday, March 11, 2011
基督教給人為自己的犬儒懦弱開脫
人好多理由信基督教. 近年香港社會壓力大, 市民在職場上飽受壓力,面對各種競爭,現實生活太過難受, 又不甘心死後沒有永生來作為現世煩惱/困苦生命的解脫, 所以期望有永生和天堂這種烏托邦
不少信徒骨子裡面是怕死, 同時也是自卑, 希望在教會裡面的群體平庸重拾現實中不會找到的自信
教會裡面個個都一樣膠, 於是沒有人會話自己膠, 偶然講了些比較言之有物的話, 就一定比人讚 : 好好既分享阿!
教會集體反智, 集體犬儒, 有"蒙恩, 來世盼望, 上帝用愚拙的道理拯救, 屬靈, 每個人有自己領受"開脫, 集體的感染下, 個人信徒如何愚昧, 說的如何荒謬, 有群體的掩護, 就不怕 --- "那麼多人同我一樣 (戆居), 即是我沒有問題, 或者不是問題啦 -- 參加童黨, 群毆打死人的童黨, 也是這種邏輯 (那麼多人有分打, 一定不是我一個有問題)
說穿了, 是這些人沒有勇氣成為獨立的人, 不能有獨立的人格, 不願意做A君, "我A君是這樣認為", 不, 他們一定要 answer to an authority -- "我A君是基督徒, 聖經係這樣講, 所以...." -- 他們沒有基督徒身分, 沒有聖經, 沒有神, 就沒有獨立完整的人格.
躲入教會, 其實是一種避世的心態, 來逃避現實的無力感, 無理的上司, 難以忍受的工作, 家庭裡面的不安，在教會可以退守在自己的小世界中，尋求虛假的寧靜，坐下在教會的"心靈按摩椅", 星期一又"重新得力", 阿阿, D 貧富懸殊好慘, 一係話: 我們傳福音比D官員, 為他們祈禱, 他們會改變, 我都經常祈禱的阿".....祈左禱就係做做本分了.....然後繼續平庸, 反智 (屬靈)
不少信徒骨子裡面是怕死, 同時也是自卑, 希望在教會裡面的群體平庸重拾現實中不會找到的自信
教會裡面個個都一樣膠, 於是沒有人會話自己膠, 偶然講了些比較言之有物的話, 就一定比人讚 : 好好既分享阿!
教會集體反智, 集體犬儒, 有"蒙恩, 來世盼望, 上帝用愚拙的道理拯救, 屬靈, 每個人有自己領受"開脫, 集體的感染下, 個人信徒如何愚昧, 說的如何荒謬, 有群體的掩護, 就不怕 --- "那麼多人同我一樣 (戆居), 即是我沒有問題, 或者不是問題啦 -- 參加童黨, 群毆打死人的童黨, 也是這種邏輯 (那麼多人有分打, 一定不是我一個有問題)
說穿了, 是這些人沒有勇氣成為獨立的人, 不能有獨立的人格, 不願意做A君, "我A君是這樣認為", 不, 他們一定要 answer to an authority -- "我A君是基督徒, 聖經係這樣講, 所以...." -- 他們沒有基督徒身分, 沒有聖經, 沒有神, 就沒有獨立完整的人格.
躲入教會, 其實是一種避世的心態, 來逃避現實的無力感, 無理的上司, 難以忍受的工作, 家庭裡面的不安，在教會可以退守在自己的小世界中，尋求虛假的寧靜，坐下在教會的"心靈按摩椅", 星期一又"重新得力", 阿阿, D 貧富懸殊好慘, 一係話: 我們傳福音比D官員, 為他們祈禱, 他們會改變, 我都經常祈禱的阿".....祈左禱就係做做本分了.....然後繼續平庸, 反智 (屬靈)
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